Rough in

Discussion in 'Electrical Forum discussion & Blog' started by hids2000, Sep 20, 2007.

  1. hids2000

    hids2000 New Member

    Messages:
    63
    Location:
    Belleville NJ
    I need some help with rough in. Attached are 2 pics of what I did.

    box 1.jpg

    box 2.jpg


    There are two 14-2 providing power to 4 switches. I labeled each wire it may be hard to see the labels.
    One of the 14-2 will provide power to 600watt track light switch and an outside 100watt light switch.

    The other 14-2 will provide power to two switches each controlling a 50†ceiling fans.

    The inspector came today and left in 10 secs. He said it is not ready, because the splices are not done.

    I thought “rough in†is just having the correct wire, making sure the wire is stapled to the posts correctly? When I asked him what it means to have the “all the splices done†he said go call an electrician.

    Only thing I can think of that he wants me to remove the rubber sheathing from the NM wires, and splice and wire nut all the grounds and natural together. But since I can’t install any of the switches yet. Do I just leave the black wire alone?

    Any help and suggestion is much appreciated.
  2. Livin4Real

    Livin4Real New Member

    Messages:
    192
    Location:
    Indianapolis, IN
    Is there a particular reason you can't install the switches yet? Also if you won't be using the angle nails go ahead and pull them from the box.
  3. frenchie

    frenchie Jack of all trades

    How is that box attached?
  4. jbfan74

    jbfan74 Electrical Contractor

    Messages:
    131
    Location:
    Newnan, GA
    I agree with frenchie.
    If that box has screws going through it in the back, it will not pass anyway.
    What the inspector wants is all the grounds made up, all neturals made up, all the hots, with pigtails made up, and the swithlegs waiting for the switches.
  5. Bob NH

    Bob NH In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,317
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    I would screw a piece of 2x4 to that stud behind the boards and drive the nails into it to hold the end of the box in position.

    I can't see the numbers but your box should have the volume marked somewhere. You need enough volume for equivalent of 21 wires, 42 cubic inches.
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2007
  6. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,531
    Location:
    North Carolina
    The most important thing here is the equipment grounding conductors and grounded (neutral) conductor.

    All the grounds will be together but the grounded (neutral) conductors must stay with the circuit conductors do not join all them together.

    Once the devices are installed and a cover plate attached these items are no longer visible and would require a good amount of time to inspect on a finial inspection.

    A question concerning the installation of the box;
    This is a violation of 110.3(B) as well as 314.23(B)(2) and should be rejected. The wall and back of the box are not strong enough to support the box itself.
  7. hids2000

    hids2000 New Member

    Messages:
    63
    Location:
    Belleville NJ
    the box i am using is a Carlon Wall Boxes, Nonmetallic Four-Gang
    Model BH464A it holds 64cu" so i got enough space.

    One the right side the box has a flange that goes over the 2x4 post which i nailed with two 3" 10D nails. I didn't nail or screw anything to the back of the box. there is in fact about 1" space between the back of the box and the wall.

    I will build out the left side of the box with 2x4 so i can use those 2 build-in nails and make the box more secure.

    I will take a pic later once do up some of the wires so you guys can tell me if it looks good. I am going to make sure all the ground wires are connected and there are 4 pig tails 6" long each for each of the switches. The Neutrals I will wire nut them together and I will leave the hots alone. Does that sound right?
    thanks guys for the info.
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2007
  8. hids2000

    hids2000 New Member

    Messages:
    63
    Location:
    Belleville NJ

    I thought you can't install the switches until i pass the rough in? If I could install the switches than hack I would.
  9. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,531
    Location:
    North Carolina
    If you indeed have two circuits
    then all the Neutrals would not go together.

    The neutrals of this circuit
    will go together and the neutrals of this circuit
    will go together.
  10. Livin4Real

    Livin4Real New Member

    Messages:
    192
    Location:
    Indianapolis, IN
    That's a little harsh. At least he's here for help. Everyone starts out knowing nothing, it's those that choose to read and ask questions that learn something. I'm not an electrician, I'm not a plumber. I crunch numbers on 100,000lbs of freight for aircraft and tell people how to load it so it doesn't go down in a ball of flames. I'm also an avid DIY'er that reads and researches and asks questions so I can learn as much as possible, when I can't do something I hire someone. Criticizing people in a non-constructive way just scares them away from asking questions, so the next time they'll just do what they think they should instead of asking the right way to do it for fear of being berated, then end up multiplying the problem, getting hurt or worse.
    I'd step off my soapbox now but I'm vertically challenged and need the height ;)


    Brian
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2007
  11. kd

    kd New Member

    Messages:
    207
    I find it works better to label the cables on the blue box parallel to where they come in with a permanent marker pen-other labels vanish when you splice. I always install switches and temporary light bulbs in the rough so I can make sure everything works and provide light for the workers. But not receptacles. I use some old switches and do not attach them to the boxes, they just are stuffed in there at an angle so the wall can be drywalled. The switches get covered with drywall mud and paint, so they are replaced at finish. I use rubber bulb holders, I call them used car lot bulb sockets, for a single light bulb. I hate having to run new cables to solve mistakes at finish electrical. The inspectors usually say, "At least you know it works!"
  12. Livin4Real

    Livin4Real New Member

    Messages:
    192
    Location:
    Indianapolis, IN
    you can install switches before drywalling, most have the removable tabs that can be broken off with no impact to the switch. The screw mounting holes are still intact after doing so, just the "ears" get snapped off to allow pre-drywall wiring.
  13. jbfan74

    jbfan74 Electrical Contractor

    Messages:
    131
    Location:
    Newnan, GA
    The ears have a purpose!
    They pull the device tight against the drywall so the cover will sit flush and you are not using the cover to hold the switch flush.
  14. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,531
    Location:
    North Carolina
    As a code official I will make you remove the switches before I make the rough-in inspection.

    In NC if I catch the interior circuits energized before a CO is issued I will have all power removed.
  15. Bob NH

    Bob NH In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,317
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    What is expected in a remodel where the house is already occupied?

    I did a remodel that included installing a subpanel that served the water heater, dryer, lights, and several outlets. Most but not all of the outlets existed in the original house. The only thing the inspector seemed concerned about was to verify that the neutral in the subpanel was not grounded.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2007
  16. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,531
    Location:
    North Carolina
    404.9 Provisions for General-Use Snap Switches.
    (A) Faceplates. Faceplates provided for snap switches mounted in boxes and other enclosures shall be installed so as to completely cover the opening and, where the switch is flush mounted, seat against the finished surface.
    (B) Grounding. Snap switches, including dimmer and similar control switches, shall be effectively grounded and shall provide a means to ground metal faceplates, whether or not a metal faceplate is installed. Snap switches shall be considered effectively grounded if either of the following conditions is met:
    (1) The switch is mounted with metal screws to a metal box or to a nonmetallic box with integral means for grounding devices.
    (2) An equipment grounding conductor or equipment bonding jumper is connected to an equipment grounding termination of the snap switch.
  17. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,531
    Location:
    North Carolina
    What is being done?

    Any new installations would fall under the same rules as new construction.

    Do you believe that just because it is remodel work it is exempt from inspections?
  18. Bob NH

    Bob NH In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,317
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    Not exempt from inspections, but I was replying to your comment about shutting off the power if anything is connected. If I am moving a water heater from the main to a new subpanel in an occupied house, what is the acceptable process for hooking up the essential circuits. Do I have to rough install the circuits, get them inspected, do the final, and get that inspected, before applying power to the circuits?

    If I am putting in new wire and a 4-terminal receptacle for a range in an existing receptacle box when I put it on the new subpanel am I supposed to install the cable, wait for rough inspection, install the receptacle, and wait for final inspection before I can cook dinner?
  19. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,531
    Location:
    North Carolina
    It would take more time than I am willing to invest to answer your questions above in their entirety. We both know that each installation you have mentioned above and the manner in which it was installed would warrant its own merit for inspection process.

    A very simple rule that most in my area go by is;

    If the wall is open anytime during the remodel process then anything new that will get covered by wall board requires an inspection before the finish wall is installed.
    With either of the two circuits you mentioned above installed in the wall an inspection of these circuits would be required before the wall was covered.
    Should either installation leave the cable exposed for inspection as under a house then the circuit cable would be visible for the entire length but the short run that was fished in the wall.
    If the subpanel that you mention in both scenarios is new then the panel would need inspection before being energized.

    Granted a lot of inspectors will give a lot of lead way with remodel installations but the contractor making the installation is carrying a very big liability if the proper procedures are not followed.
  20. hids2000

    hids2000 New Member

    Messages:
    63
    Location:
    Belleville NJ
    The above got me thinking about over crowding. MY TJI joists have knock out that are 1-1/2" in size. To me there is more than enough room for those wires. Looking at the attached picture am I "over crowding" with the number of wires going though each knock out hole? If so I may as well rerun those wires before the inspector comes back and yells at me again.

    Also can anyone recommend some basic books I can go buy and read up on?


    tji.jpg
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