Retired master plumber toilet venting design question/problems.

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by patma, Jan 21, 2013.

  1. patma

    patma New Member

    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Hello. thanks in advance for the help.

    I am updating a second floor bath and had question about toilet venting. The existing toilet has no vent and runs a 3" 8' horiz DWS into a 3" stack to the basement, then 8' horiz run over to the main house cast stack via 3x3x3 wye.

    I hired a retired master plumber to do the work but he has a problem now and cant get to the work. He gave me the layout, detailed instructions, parts list and plenty of material.

    My question is about venting. The space I am working is is very limited and his design calls for a 180 degree change in direction of the soil by way of two street 90's back to back.

    I read about using a 3X2X3 wye downstream of the closet flange, installed on its back and turned up 45 degrees then a street 45 and then turned up into the wall via a 90, then out to a 3" and through the roof.

    Here are pics of the two set ups I am considering. The 180 is the master plumber design and other is mine. (The venting is 2" and will extend through roof for both setups) I layed them out quickly but the general layout is evident.

    https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/1...29767507480577

    Thanks in advance for the help. I can't get a hold of my plumber for a week or more..
  2. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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  3. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    New York, NY
    I'm sure others can give you very sound advice, but I am posting just to help spot some potential issues.

    Code is going to require cleanouts on that change of direction in your Master Plumbers setup, I think. (Any horizontal run with a change of direction over 135 degrees.) That's not going to be fun to snake out if there's a clog. And there are code requirements with regard to under-floor cleanout location vis a vis space behind them and distance from the access hole.

    Is the point that your proposed setup doesn't require a change of direction of the soil because the vent is brought in "over the shoulder" if you will? If your proposed setup flies, the more direct route to the stack is probably preferable.

    (And, of course, on your existing installation with the 8-foot unvented run to the stack, obviously, code requires a vent within 6 feet of the closet flange.)
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  4. patma

    patma New Member

    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Thank you. Still learning th Google stuff

    re: Set up. I am concerned about the radius and also lack of clean-out on the original set up. In addition, I believe code requires 45's combined to make the direction change, not ganged 90's.

    I have received two different opinions on the straight set up. One is that would work fine and one that stated it would not. A bit confused with this.

    If I had my choice, I would go w/ the straightest possible solution and avoid any tight radius' and/or clean outs. The space I am working w/in is tights and I'm very limited as to where I can turn the vent up.

    <If your proposed setup flies> This would be my question. Do you see a reason, other than local code, the straight 'over the shoulder' set up would not work?

    Thanks again for your time.

    Trying new link to pics https://plus.google.com/photos/105385845666049078607/albums/5836029767507480577
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  5. cacher_chick

    cacher_chick Test, Don't Guess!

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    Neither of the options you have demonstrated are good.

    Is wet venting through the lavatory a possibility?
  6. patma

    patma New Member

    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Not very easily but possible. The problem is the length of the horz run for the toilet. I could wet vent at the point where the 7 ft run turns down into the stack... but I think 6' is max run w/o a vent.( in review of 906.1, seems a 3" line has a 10' max distance to vent) So basically the 3" would run 7 feet and combine w/ the 2" shower drain which would act as a wet vent. I have a 2" 4 ft shower /vent drain coming from one direction of the room and the 3" toilet drain coming from exact opposite direction, both in the same floor joist bay. The shower is vented w/ a 2". They meet in and over a closet and then drop vertically into the basement when the 3" drain runs horz for another 8 feet b-4 wye'd into the main house cast iron stack. The previous set up of the bath had no vents at all for the bath, toilet and vanity. It seemed to drain fine but was used by only one adult. The upgrade I am doing will now support 2 adults and have a shower in place of the tub. Venting is code so I want to do it to that standard. Of course. The master plumber I have hired seems to think the 180' turn is fine.. but I've read many incidents where that configuration is not favorable. Thanks for your assistance.

    Edit- There is a lav that ties into this same closet space but it too would meet the toilet drain at the end of the horz run. There is no way to vent the toilet with an existing wet vent other than at the point where all three drains converge and turn down into the closet space.

    Wondered is something like this would be better.. http://www.terrylove.com/forums/sho...s-better&highlight=toilet shower common drain

    Wye the toilet into the 3 in and take the vent off the end like in picture B. I think I have clearance for this setup too.

    Edit: I could use 4" for the WC and have max run by code of 10 feet. Flat vents are allowed in KY
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
  7. patma

    patma New Member

    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
  8. cacher_chick

    cacher_chick Test, Don't Guess!

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    Location:
    Land of Cheese
    The water closet vent works, if that is the drain and vent for the lavatory. I am not clear what you are trying to do on the left side. We are only allowed to wet vent through the lavatory. You should use only long-turn 90's on the horizontal.

    The folks here can't easily tell what pictures are old and which are new. I suggest you cut it down to 2-3 photos and/or label them and you might get more comments.
  9. patma

    patma New Member

    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Main Plumb.jpg

    Here is a better pic.

    https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-.../AAAAAAAA_N0/anWSDnuBfsk/s1108/Main Plumb.jpg

    Shower p trap noted
    Shower / Lav vent through roof noted
    Lav P trap noted
    3" Wye and 90 from WC stack fit and joined to vertical soil stack in chase below floor
    WC drain will be 6' (IPC allows up to 10. UPC is 6 i believe)
    Lav and shower vents will be connected w/ 2in and dry vents through roof.
    Lav drain will act as wet vent for the WC drain. (This pic blocks the long sweep 3x2x3 wye connecting the drain to the wc drain)

    Thanks again for your help.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
  10. cacher_chick

    cacher_chick Test, Don't Guess!

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Land of Cheese
    That picture is much better.

    I'm wondering if you can fit it in the joist space with everything pitched properly, and if it can be installed that way without hacking any joists?
  11. patma

    patma New Member

    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Yes, the drops are well w/in 1/8 ft for the WC but the shower Ptrap has some height issues. I'll have to make a larger hole for the shower T to allow the hub up into the sub-floor. The only concern I have is how to keep the WC flange plumb and square to the floor. Will I have enough play in the glue up to compensate for the <1" drop for the flange into the bend. I think I can split the difference between the where the stub enters the bend and also enters the flange.

    This all sits over a downstairs Jack and Jill closet space So the bored floor joists are actually sitting directly atop the closet/wall below. This avoids any cutting into the span section of the joist. The previous owner cut and hacked this section so the cross cut holes are there.

    Do you think the venting and configuration of this layout will suffice? Thanks for your assistance. I truly appreciate it.
  12. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    Location:
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    A "right hand side inlet tee" would give the toilet connection AND the shower connection at the same level. Whether your desigh is the "best one", and ALL of them seem to be the same, depends on construction details we do not know about. BUT, the "U turn" one is a "dumb idea".
  13. patma

    patma New Member

    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Thanks. I'll find the T. Right now I have a 3x2x3 wye on the stack and was going to turn the shower drain down into the y. Your suggestion would eliminate one fitting and would make more space in the closet.
    I'm a bit confused, so are you suggesting the design pictured in #9 would be a proper design as long as it was installed and constructed correctly? If so, thanks. If not, could you please elaborate. I would hate to make a mistake.

    (the master plumber called me today and I informed him of my changes. He got somewhat angry that I changed the U turn design and vent. He stated "If you don't believe me that it will work, hook it up and pour some water down it." ... Wow.
  14. patma

    patma New Member

    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Have you ever used a San T on its back and street 45 rolled to at least 45 (more like 80') as a dryvent for a shower? My problem is when the SanT is on the vertical, my shower arm is above the floor. If I turn it on its side, roll it up 45,(more like 80') I can vent up and into the wall, no problem. Here are two pics. A is my problem B is what I want to do if possible. Thank you for your time. I am almost finished. :)

    A: 20130206_131059[1].jpg
    B: 20130206_131214[1].jpg
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2013
  15. patma

    patma New Member

    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    Kentucky
    I guess I could use a TY and bring the vent up past that?
  16. cacher_chick

    cacher_chick Test, Don't Guess!

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    Neither the sanitary tee or the vent take-off can be horizontal.

    You can use a wye and 45 or a combo on the trap arm to bring the vent up vertically. The term vertical allows anything between 45 and 90 degrees from level.
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2013
  17. patma

    patma New Member

    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    Kentucky
    I think I could. Confused a bit, would not the vent take off in the picture, if turned up 90 work. (I guess not b/c the T is still horizontal.)

    If I did use the wye and 45, would the vent be upstream of the wye. In essence, the drain would 180 back to the soil stack?

    Pardon the confusion. Tx
  18. cacher_chick

    cacher_chick Test, Don't Guess!

    Messages:
    3,260
    Location:
    Land of Cheese
    It is more a matter of what fittings are appropriate for what use. A sanitary tee is only for use when transitioning from a horizontal drain to a vertical drain. The sweep in the tee must flow vertically downward. It could also be used when combining dry vents on the horizontal, but only above the flood rim of the highest fixture served by the vent.

    Here is a picture showing how a wye and 45 or combo fitting is used for a vent take-off. The vent is required to be vertical to ensure that it is not ever likely to become clogged.

    vent.jpg
  19. patma

    patma New Member

    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Thanks for your help. I think I get it now. Per my recent picture, I can replace the S tee w/ a combo wye and turn it up into the wall for dry vent. This should put the 2ft arm below the floor and good clearance.

    S trap issue? There is a 3 foot section that is steeper than 1/4 in drop. If I have a vent b-4 this section, that would eliminate the risk of S trap?

    The setup: Ptrap>>>2' arm>>>Wye/Combo vent turned up>>>>>>long 90>>>>>4' (steep drop)>>>>Long 90 turned down into stack......

    The 2" dry vent upstream from the steep 4 foot section of drain should eliminate the risk of S trap?

    Thanks in advance. I truly appreciate your time and help.
  20. cacher_chick

    cacher_chick Test, Don't Guess!

    Messages:
    3,260
    Location:
    Land of Cheese
    You can do whatever you need to in terms of pitch/drop once you are downstream of the vent. The vertical vent only need be 1-1/2".

    You are going to need an accessible clean out anyplace your turn exceeds 135 degrees in total.
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2013
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