Resin-Tech CG8-BL vs. CGS-BL

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by FleckLander, Mar 23, 2012.

  1. FleckLander

    FleckLander New Member

    Messages:
    16
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Thanks for all the great advice I received in prior posts. I decided to forgo the Vortech tank and go with a 5600SXT in 64K with regular resin tank. Will be ordering the unit Monday from one of two online dealers.

    Just need some advice on resin upgrades. Someone in the household has stated that they don't want no #### Chinese crap in there. In the interest of maintaining household harmony, I'll spend the extra $ for a resin upgrade, even though I really wouldn't need it. One online company offers Resin-Tech CGS-BL as an upgrade. The other company offers Resin-Tech CG8-BL as an upgrade. Both upgrades are $40.

    Based on the spec sheets, CGS-BL is a USA made high capacity resin, while CG8-BL is a USA made premium grade, high capacity resin. For the same cost, CG8-BL appears to be a better deal, as it's the premium grade. Just wanted to check and make sure that these Resin-Tech resins aren't junk or anything, or that the high capacity one is actually better than the premium one. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
  2. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    I have no experience with either of those resins but I'd go with any old manufacturers' resin; like Purolite C-100, Dow etc.

    Otherwise I think you've made good choices.
  3. FleckLander

    FleckLander New Member

    Messages:
    16
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    I'm discovering that buying a softener online is kinda like the wild wild west regarding resin selection. One site says "tested by WQA", but doesn't say "tested and certified by WQA". Is that just an ommission or an attempt to deceive.....lol One site touts they have USA made DOW resin, but it's a version made for industrial use and not WQA certified. One site says "Made in USA" for their resin, but the manufacturer says its made offshore but heavily tested in the USA.....lol

    Before I drive myself crazy with this, I decided just to go with a tested and certified resin, no matter where it's made. But now I see "NSF/ANSI-44 and 61 certified for material safety", "NSF/ANSI-44/61 certified", and "WQA Gold Seal Certified". Can anyone explain what these various ratings mean? Much thanks in advance for any help anyone can provide.
  4. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,942
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Explaingin certifications is a very large topic.

    I will simplify it as best i can.

    NSF, ANSI, WRAS, UPC, WQA, etc... are competing certification companies. Most will be able to cross refence eachothers certifications. I have equipment certified by different agencies to meetthe needs/marketing of the countries the product is intended to be sold in.

    For the US market, NSF, UPC, WQA are all highly reputable agencies and will cross reference over to eachother.

    A WQA Gold Seal Certified Resin will have to meet certain criteria for being solvent free, and will not impart impurities into the water.

    For your resin, a 8-10% crosslink, WQA Gold Seal Certitfied resin is all you need. If you can get a USA made resin, all the better.

    Dont work too hard on this, resin is fairly inexpensive, lasts a very long time, and is easy to replace in the future if it needs to be.

    Do not buy cheap resin, it may be less than 8% crosslink, which has a tendancy to fail quickly when exposed to even small amounts of oxidizing agents or even normal use.

    We use primarily NSF for our certifications, but we also spend a little bit of money with UPC and WQA to keep them happy.
  5. chevy427

    chevy427 Banned

    Messages:
    174
    Location:
    USA
    Certifications on water products helps the consumer understand that certain product pass rigorous testing and qualify for excellence. There are many products that are tested but do not pass and many that avoid testing. There are also system certifications and component certifications. With system ratings, the whole unit as used is tested and with component testing, one or more parts may have passed, like the holding tank, but not the whole system. These companies can paste a sticker on the product but should note what part has been certified. Also, make note of the number in the certification as it indicates what testing protocol was run and what it is certified for. It might be nothing more than to state that nothing harmful is added to the water, or it may mean that it actually serves as a microbiological barrier.
    http://www.wqa.org/sitelogic.cfm?ID=1003

    There are many so-called professionals that actually put little regard to these testing organizations/certifications and pass them off as no more than advertising hype or a reasoning for inflated pricing--you can guess what quality of products they may prefer to deal with. Consumers have a choice to educate themselves so that buyer may be aware.
  6. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,942
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Well stated. We certify many of our systems. Many of our units are built with all certified equipment but the unit as a whole is not certified. We charge considerably more for our NSF certified systems. Many smaller companies cant afford to certify their equipment. A standard residential RO system can cost approximately 20-40 thousand to get through NSF assuming all of the build components are already certified by NSF. If parts are not currently certified, each component can cost approximately 10-15 thousand each so a cost of 100 thousand is not unusual for a complex piece of water treatment equipment.

    You should try certifying to ASME, some of our components that have the ASME stamp can cost 4 times more than not stamped. And they are the exact same part.

    I would highly recommend Certified components, especially since you are ingesting, bathing, or breathing in this water.
  7. FleckLander

    FleckLander New Member

    Messages:
    16
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Thanks for everyones comments. Getting back to the original question, I actually found an online retailer who seems to know what they are talking about. Their standard C108 8% resin manufactured by General Technologies in China is actualy WQA certified to NSF 44 and 61. They even gave me the link to the website. Their upgrade Dow resin made in the USA doesn't show up on the WQA website. Go figure......lol

    This particular online retailer uses Structural resin tanks, Clack brine tanks, Fleck safety brine valves, and Fleck valves. I believe all these components are made in the USA and certified by somebody on the individual component side. I don't think I'll hold it against them that the assembled softener isn't certified to NSF 44 because I'm assuming that it's a matter of a small OEM not wanting to spend the $10's of thousands to get that certification for the assembled softener.

    They also said that they too sell a lot of the 7000SXT's. I'm getting the impression that the people who actually use the 7000SXT like it. This online retailer indicated that they did have a problem when Fleck moved the 7000 line to Mexico a few years back, but all is well now that the 7000 line is back in the USA. So I'm going to go with the 7000SXT now instead of the 5600SXT. They don't stock the Fleck 32mm distributor, they only stock the Clack 32 mm distributor. From what I can gather, the Clack 32 mm distributor is OK?
  8. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,942
    Location:
    Ontario California
    The Clack 32 mm distributor is excellent. We have had no field failures of the Clack bottom screens. You are also correct, the larger companies that use the 7000SXT rarely push any other product since it simplifies their inventory and service. When they are used in heavy industrial application, 5 Cu. foot systems regenerating daily they last for many years with no service. When service is required, a rebuild takes as little as 5 minutes and the system is as good as new.

    Complete system certification is not critical, on a standard softener, it does confirm that all the parts work together as advertised. It can also be used as an effective marketing tool. In some counties and cities, it is a code requirement. The certification cost for a complete system can be as high as 15-50K, depending on what certification level it is being designed to. Resin certification has become a reasonable issue lately due to the solvents that can be used during manufacturing are not something you want to consume. Certain resins are certified as solvent free.

    I was just at the Fallbrook manufacturing and assembly facility for Fleck, the 7000 assembly line is very impressive and top notch. The newly updated valvebody molds are a nice update. the only valve I see competing with the 7000 in the future is the 5800 coming out shortly. The 5800 will probably not be available for online sales so for the DIY crowd, it will not be an issue. The components you listed will all seve you well for many years. We also mix brine tanks, mieral tanks, resin manufacturers etc. to meet our customers needs, and our customers cost concerns.
  9. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,942
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Flecklander, the 7000SXT will be fine, new mold, or the "old mold". Most people understand that molds have a limited life and when the molds reach a certain number of products made, the molds will typically go in for "service". They are tested, tolerances issues are corrected, etc. At that time, the cost to make minor changes is minimal so many molds are "tweaked" at this point. The 7000SXT that has been out for over a decade had the molds reworked last year, and some areas were beefed up because it was found that the valve neck can crack when the valves are installed incorrectly (too tight), or when the plumbing is done poorly causing undue stress on the neck of the valve (discussed earlier, flexible connection, or enough flex in the plumbing to accomodate the tanks expansion and contraction) I have seen Clack, Autotrol, 5600 valves, etc all suffer this same problem. It is not a bad valve or mold by Clack, Autotrol, or Fleck, but if the potential problem can be less likely to happen with a little tweaking, then I applaud a company that spends the money to improve an already exceptional product. Considering the valve body on my house is over 12 years old (first production run 7000), with hard copper, very little flex built in, with a stacked tank configuration (this creates double the tank expenasion and contraction) I would say you will be just fine. And before somebody says I did not put in flexible connectors.... you are correct. It is by design. The attampt is to find weaknesses, to put the systems under undue stress, this is to see if the product will hold up long term. I would give it a passing grade so far. The same reason I now have 4 tanks on my personal system controlled by 1 valve, it is for testing purposes, to see in the real world what happens when you push system design to the limits.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 29, 2012
  10. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    That sounds a bit more serious than tweaking tolerances and previously you have said there were no serious problems with the 7000. Cracked valve bodies sounds serious to me.
  11. FleckLander

    FleckLander New Member

    Messages:
    16
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Now I'll have to call them again and confirm that these are all current production 7000SXT's. Am I correct in assuming that the valve should come in a factory sealed box with a production date on it somewhere and a serial number on the valve?
  12. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,942
    Location:
    Ontario California
    The 7000SXT comes individually boxed and there is a production date on the box. I would not worry about it being the newer or the older mold, I doubt anybody could even find the differences. The "old" mold has no problems, other than the same problem every plastic valve on the market has, overtightening. I did have a discussion with one of the largest 7000SXT dealers in the industry and he had a great insite that I overlooked, and I should not have missed something so obvious. The 7000SXT tank neck o-ring has the ability to fall out in the box during shipping. The o-ring is fits in a groove and, the box design makes it hard to notice when you are mass assembling systems. Part of the asembly procudeure check sheet here is to confirm the o-ring is in position. If the o-ring is not noticed during assembly, the system will leak when the system is started up. A customer may attampt to fix the leak by tightening the valve even more. Without the o-ring, their is no "cushion" between the tank and neck. Any additional tightening will almost cetainly cause damage. The threads in the tank, and the threads on the valve do not flex enough to accomodate a person attemting to fix a leak by tightening further. This is also a common assembly error on the 9100 series control valves since they have an identical o-ring design. This particular company also noted they have had a statisticaly insignificant number of necks cracks on the 7000 valves. Like us, they have a nearly identical number of failures between the whole product line, and it is almost always on equipment we did not build.

    Even if the date on the box says 3-2-2012, that is no guarantee that the valve body is the newest version. The valve bodies are mass produced and the time between molding and assembly could be several months.

    If there were any real problems with the valve, we would not be able to sell as many as we do. It is still our best seller and is particualrly popular with the light commercial guys. The valve is bulletproof. Personally, I would have zero concern for the valve failing.

    Hope this helps!
  13. FleckLander

    FleckLander New Member

    Messages:
    16
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Thanks for the info. I wasn't concerned about the new mold so much, but about the possibility that someone has some 2 or 3 year old 7000's laying around from Mexico.
  14. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,942
    Location:
    Ontario California
    LOL, it would not surprise me.... the valve box does state where they are assembled, and their final assebly date. And anything built in 2011 should be fine.

    The real issue with the Reynosa plant was less about QC, and more about product delivery times. The lead times, order fulfillment, etc went south, when the valves went south.
  15. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    I still say a 2510 SXT is the best choice. The design has been around for decades and you never hear anything bad about it except it is a bit difficult to replace the seals and spacers without the special Fleck tools for it.. It's rock solid and usually works for 10-20 years without needing anything.
  16. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    The control valve will ship to the Fleck distributor in the described box but, when the online dealer orders it, the valve may very well be taken out of the box and packed in the salt tank to reduce shipping costs and ship the product to the online dealer's customer. Or, some distributors will install the valve temporarily on the resin tank and box them together and ship it that way to the online dealer's customer. That's because the salt tank usually ships based on the size of the box, usually considered by UPS as over sized Class 3 or something like that as if it weighs IIRC something like 90 lbs. So the distributor loads it up with everything they can.
  17. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,942
    Location:
    Ontario California
    The valves have date stamped information on them to indicate the date of manufacture, these molded components will usually ship from the assembler within 4-6 months to the distibutors, and the distributor should rotate their inventory in no more than an additional 6 months. If you get a Fleck valve, let me know which one and I will tell you where the date stamp code is so you can see if it within the 1 year mark that is considered normal. The 5 year warranty starts from the date of purchase according to your receipt, not more than 1 year after the date code, without reciept, the date code becomes your warranty start date. While this is not set in stone, it is very common for most manufacturers. Some will only give a 6 month window from the date of manufacturing.

    Last year we found a box of 48 Fleck 5600 metered valves in the storage area, hidden in a corner. The date stamp showed them to be over ten years old, so... these went to the garage sale rack, no warranty, for $75 each. They sold out in the first half hour we put them out.
  18. FleckLander

    FleckLander New Member

    Messages:
    16
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    My 7000SXT softener should be arriving on Wednesday. Dealer has indicated that it is a current USA production valve. Will be shipped in 4 separate boxes. Customer comments on their website indicate that items were packaged well, so hopefully they'll keep the valve in its original factory box.

    Now I have to decide on how to replumb for the new softener. Current brass valve softener is only a little more than 3 feet along the copper tubing from the control valve outlet to the inlet of the water heater. Installation instructions indicate that the noryl valve shouldn't be any closer than 10 feet from the water heater inlet. I can move away from the water heater and put in a drop for the softener just after the hard cold takeoff for the kitchen sink and outside hose bibs and get about 12 feet from the water heater inlet, which should be OK. I priced 1" copper today. Ten feet of 1" tubing and a few fittings is probably going to cost almost what it cost fifty years ago for materials to plumb the whole house.....lol. Probably not good form though to drop down from the copper with CPVC to the softener.

    I'll be using the Fleck 7000 bypass valve, so I shouldn't need another bypass set up in the plumbing pipes? My plan is to put a 1' FP ball valve on the inlet pipe to the Fleck bypass valve only, and then run Falcon SS flexible connectors from copper 1" MPT adapters on the copper inlet and outlet pipes to the Fleck bypass valve 1" MPT adapters. If the Fleck bypass ever failed, I could just shut off the inlet ball valve, disconnect the Fleck bypass valve, and then connect a flexible connector to the 1" MPT copper inlet and outlet pipes and have a bypass until the Fleck bypass could be repaired. If I go with Falcon SS flexible connectors, can you run them in a "J" pattern off the vertical copper tubing? If so, how long should the horizontal leg be to allow a little room to flex? Thanks for any tips anyone can give me on this.
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2012
  19. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,942
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Does your current softener feed only the hot water? The Falcon Flex lines can be flexed any way you want within reason, try to keep them nice looking. They are too nice to not spend a couple minutes trying to make the bands look professional. The price of copper pipe is higher than I have ever seen it. I still prefer to do plumbing in copper, but considering the price, I can see why even the best old time plumbers who would never consider using pex have started to look into it or have started using it. Check out the price of Stainless, it is comparable to copper now, too bad I dont have my old automated Stainless pipe wlder anymore...

    Your idea of putting a ball valve before everything and having the Falcon as a bypass backup is perfect. I have seen a few 7000 bypasses leak after 10 years, small drip, and I have seen a few of the clack interconnecters leak as well. Rare, but by having the Falcon Flex line, you add a great backup that anyone can do, and the Falcon Flex will eliminate a few copper fittings, probably will save you the cost of the Flex lines.
  20. FleckLander

    FleckLander New Member

    Messages:
    16
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Current softener feeds hot water and laundry room cold. When I drop down the new loop for the new softener it will add soft cold to all the main bathroom fixtures as well. Depending on how well soft cold in the main bath sink goes for teeth brushing, I plan on adding soft cold to the half bath toilet and sink. The half bath will be easy to swap out as it's all flowguard gold CPCV from the last copper crisis in the 1980's.....lol. After 30 years it all looks good.

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