Replacing/retrofitting an old wall mounted toilet

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by lordmoosh, Mar 17, 2013.

  1. lordmoosh

    lordmoosh New Member

    Messages:
    115
    Location:
    USA
    Hello all,

    I have what appears to be a wall mounted toilet. I would assume this means its discharges into the wall instead of into the ground. This toilet is above a crawl space. It is an American Standard unit which I believe was manufactured in the late 80's because thats when the previous home owner built the addition where the bathroom/toilet is. Ideally I would like to replace this toilet with a new more efficient toilet but I have found it difficult to find replacement units. It seems like wall mount is more popular in commercial buildings. When I first got the house the toilet wouldn't flush unless I held the lever for a few seconds. I opened the top and found a bottle of cleaner inside of the tank so I discarded it. I played around with the chain and now it seems to flush properly. I have not heard it refilling/leaking...yet. I have attached pictures to this thread. Here are my questions:

    1) Does anyone know of good, efficient wall mounted toilets that I could use to replace the one I have (shown in the pictures). I do not know how the tiles look under/behind the toilet so I would like to get a toilet that covers the same area that this old toilet does. I am hoping that the entire floor is tiled but I cannot be sure without removing the toilet.

    2) If I cannot find a good replacement, what would you suggest I do to upgrade this toilet internally? As you can tell the flapper looks quite nasty probably from those in tank cleaning liquids the previous owner used. Most of the components could probably use a replacement. I went to Home Depot and the person there suggested I replace everything using this kit: http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/202183...10051&N=25ecodZ5yc1v&R=202183802#BVRRWidgetID

    What do you guys think?

    IMG_20130317_130149.jpg IMG_20130317_130211.jpg IMG_20130317_130221.jpg IMG_20130317_130226.jpg IMG_20130317_130230.jpg
  2. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,230
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    From the tank's #, it appears that this a "Yorkville" toilet, in which case it is a "rear outlet floor mounted" toilet NOT a wall mounted one. Therefore, if this is indeed the case, the "commercial" wall mounts, or even the residential ones would NOT work for you. You need a "ROFM" toilet and they are commonly interchangeable as far as the tile under and behind them is concerned. Keep the "blue junk" out of the tank.
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
  3. lordmoosh

    lordmoosh New Member

    Messages:
    115
    Location:
    USA
    I guess its floor mounted because its weight is on the floor? The bolts go into the wall. How would one find a ROFM toilet? I google'd it and didn't get much. Thanks!
  4. lordmoosh

    lordmoosh New Member

    Messages:
    115
    Location:
    USA
    Ok I found some. They seem really expensive compared to regular toilets. I think I might hold off replacing it for now. Would you mind answering this:

    2) If I cannot find a good replacement, what would you suggest I do to upgrade this toilet internally? As you can tell the flapper looks quite nasty probably from those in tank cleaning liquids the previous owner used. Most of the components could probably use a replacement. I went to Home Depot and the person there suggested I replace everything using this kit: http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/2021838...2#BVRRWidgetID

    Thank you.
  5. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,801
    Location:
    New England
    Other than replacing the fill valve and the flapper valve, you can't really upgrade a toilet much of any...the key is to ensure that when replacing the fill valve is that both the tank AND the bowl get refilled without wasting a lot of water. The bowl will only hold so much, and any extra just drains out on its own. So, unless you buy an exact replacement (and the old ones typically overfilled the bowl by sometimes gallons!), you need to pick up one that is adjustable - Korky makes a nice one with clear instructions. A toilet whose bowl is not full when you start does not flush well. The flapper valve on older toilets stayed open until the tank was essentially empty...they were designed that way. Most of the new toilets do not...the flapper is either weighted or has calibrated holes in it to close once the proper amount is dumped. If your toilet is designed to use the whole tank, unless you use a flapper designed to dump it all, it may not flush well. An OEM flapper should work properly, but there are also some that are adjustable. Note where the flapper closes, and if you get an adjustable one, adjust it so it closes at the same level.
  6. broesau

    broesau New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    Nashville
    If you do replace the toilet get a pressure assist model. The gravity fed rear discharge models just don't cut the mustard, the path of the trapway doesn't provide enough siphon for a gravity. Gerber now makes a 1.28 flushmate rear outlet, Kohler has a 1.0, but I'd rather have a little more water for a rear outlet.
  7. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,230
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    ALL you need is a new fill valve, a rubber flapper, but NOT an "adjustable" or low flush version, and a trip lever because that one looks scuzzy. Your flush valve does not need to be replaced. Then it should be "as good as new".
  8. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,756
    Location:
    New York, NY
    This kit from Korky at Lowe's should do the trick: http://www.lowes.com/pd_102579-868-...t=korky&pl=1&currentURL=?Ntt=korky&facetInfo=

    I have 7 of this type of fill valve at home, and all my toilets use Korky flappers.

    And you can then decide what handle to get. There are also a zillion styles of handle online. Just remember when replacing the handle that the nut holding it to the inside of the tank is reverse-threaded. That is, you turn it clockwise to LOOSEN. In other words, it's righty-loosy, lefty-tighty instead of righty-tighty, lefty-loosy.
  9. lordmoosh

    lordmoosh New Member

    Messages:
    115
    Location:
    USA
    Thanks everyone, especially broesau for providing some brands that sell what I need. Now that I see that Gerber sells some in the high 300's I think I will just buy a replacement toilet. Does anyone have experience with the Gerber 1.28 rear outlet toilets? The bathroom where this toilet is has been built with ADA in mind and I believe the toilet is the ADA version so I will stick with an ADA replacement.

    Here is the one I am looking at
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
  10. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,756
    Location:
    New York, NY
    That pressure assist is going to be a heck of a lot louder than the one it's replacing.

    One big concern I have is that you need to check the parts list on that toilet and make sure that it's using a Flushmate by Sloan, not the WDI dual-flush. That this toilet uses a dual-flush makes me think that it's the WDI unit. This is critical because there have been a zillion posts over the years about how the WDI pressure assist thing is an unreliable piece of crap. One of our posters has them in a hotel -- he has hundreds of them -- and their failure rate, over and over in the same toilet, is so high it is overwhelming him. So beware. Terry calls it unacceptable in his toilet reviews.

    Also, for ten bucks and 15 minutes of your time, you can put in that new fill valve and flapper, as I did in a couple of our toilets, and be very happy about the way it's working. Why not try that first?
  11. lordmoosh

    lordmoosh New Member

    Messages:
    115
    Location:
    USA
    I can definitely try that but I was trying to reduce the water usage. This thing looks like it uses 3.5 GPF and it gets used often.
  12. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,753
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    If you keep the old bowl, you will need to keep it a 3.5 GPF
    Less then that, and it may have issues.

    If you're looking to use less, then they do make 1.0, 1.28 and 1.60

    These typically use the same tank, but a different bowl.

    Floor mounted rear outlet
    American Standard Yorkville pressure assist
    Kohler Barrington pressure assist
    Gerber Ultraflush 21-310 pressure assist
    Gerber Maxwell 20-022 gravity

    Wall Hung
    American Standard Glenwall pressure assist
    Gerber Maxwell gravity 20-021 gravity

    [​IMG]

    Floor mount rear outlet bowl
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
  13. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,756
    Location:
    New York, NY
    I'm never going to tell you not to go to a water-saving model, so let's talk Gerber!

    I double-checked, and here's the piece that lays out the UltraFlush models: http://www.gerberonline.com/downloads/productliterature/fixtures/Ultra_Flush.pdf

    And, upon further research, here's the deal: You are correct to go for the 21-325, as it is the ADA height you want with the rear discharge. However, the question is which version to get: the 21-325, the EF-21-325, or the DF-21-325.

    My advice would be to AVOID THE DF VERSION. I checked the pressure-assist units, and it appears that WDI is still the manufacturer of the dual-flush. You just don't want it, based on all the comments on this forum over the past few years. WDI used to have a troll that would get on here and say that we were wrong and it was fixed, blah, blah, but the reality is, complaints still came in. The FlushMate hasn't had these issues, and the exploding FlushMate IIIs have been replaced in the last 5 or more years by one that has sold hundreds of thousands of units with no problems.

    If water-saving were my goal, I would buy the 1.1gpf version (the EF), because that should be sufficient to flush anything meaningful. Both the 1.1 and the 1.6 are official Sloan Flushmates, only the dual-flush is the WDI unit. At 1000+ in the MAP testing, I think you're not going to have an issue. However, if you have family members who clog the bowl regularly, then I would get the 1.6, and be satisfied that I had done my part to help reduce water usage.

    But I would avoid the dual-flush on this toilet.

    Shop around because delivered prices are going to vary widely, even at different plumbing suppliers in the same town. I would call and ask for a price on the specific model number you want, in the color you want. Pull the yellow pages and make yourself call five places. You will be surprised what you find.
  14. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,756
    Location:
    New York, NY
    Terry, he's looking for ADA Height, so that's why I recommended the 21-325 in the Gerber line, rather than the 310.

    His current toilet appears to be an old Yorkville 3.5.
  15. lordmoosh

    lordmoosh New Member

    Messages:
    115
    Location:
    USA
    Thanks. I will definitely look for the EF-21-325. Are these pressure assist models really loud? Are some louder than others?
  16. lordmoosh

    lordmoosh New Member

    Messages:
    115
    Location:
    USA
    Also I forgot to post this picture earlier:

    rear outlet.jpg
  17. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,756
    Location:
    New York, NY
    Regarding the question on noise: Terry says in his reviews that the noise may startle, but less than before on the UltraFlush. Some toilets are noisier than others, but since they use the same mechanism inside, it's going to be a function of the shape and thickness of the china, and also where it's installed. I have some identical toilets that are louder in some locations than others -- just the nature of acoustics, I guess.

    Here's the terrylove.com thread on the UltraFlush: http://www.terrylove.com/forums/sho...ssure-assist-toilet-review-and-comments/page1

    It basically confirms what we have been saying, i.e. don't get the dual-flush. But it raises another issue: bowl wash. The 1.1 apparently doesn't have very good bowl wash. The 1.6 is apparently-better. The pressure-assists in general apparently have less bowl wash than say the latest Totos. But of course, all the low flows have less bowl-wash than many older toilets, because there isn't as much water used...
  18. lordmoosh

    lordmoosh New Member

    Messages:
    115
    Location:
    USA
    Hi all,

    I was thinking about moving the plumbing so I could get a regular Toto toilet. Check out the pictures. Looks like they put the plumbing above the original foundation wall (the bathroom is in an addition). Would it be possible to put a hole through the section of foundation wall and shoot it up through the floor based on the pictures you see? The wall is like 12" thick. Looks like a major job.


    IMG_20130526_153345.jpg IMG_20130526_153401.jpg IMG_20130526_153419.jpg IMG_20130526_153444.jpg IMG_20130526_153450.jpg
  19. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,753
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Maybe............

    What is that section of block doing?
  20. lordmoosh

    lordmoosh New Member

    Messages:
    115
    Location:
    USA
    Looks like it is supporting the formerly exterior wall which is now an interior wall between the original room and addition. Basically what they did was open up a little section of block for a person to fit through to get to the original crawlspace from the addition's crawl space. The other 20' or so of block are holding the wall up except for that section they removed. That section of block under the toilet is 2-3 feet long and about a foot thick. Looks like there is a sill plate sitting on it under the framing. The waste pipe goes up the wall where the rear outlet toilet connects to a flange in the wall.
    Last edited: May 27, 2013
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