Replacing and raising toilet flange

Users who are viewing this thread

Kyle Altendorf

New Member
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Pennsylvania
I've been slowly working on tiling my bathroom floor and got to the toilet flange. It was attached directly to the OSB which I estimate to be 1-3/16" below where the top of my tile will end up so I figured I would need to move it up and reinstall on top of the tile after getting done with that. I went to cut/chip the spigot out of the elbow hub and was stupidly confident rather than my normal overly cautious self and ended up busting the elbow hub (see attached image). So, I went ahead and cut out a section of the OSB and found more than I had bargained for (fittings galore and nearly zero pipe). So, I'm here to try to be more cautious than last time and make sure I'm heading the right direction.

First direct question I've got is if I were able to remove the next elbow hub from the hidden joining pipe would it be acceptable to clean the pipe up (or next hub) and reglue/cement/weld to it? Given the existence of at least a few different tools for drilling out hubs I'm guessing the answer is yes. The tools seem to go for about $75 which is a bit steep for only a single planned use, but it isn't out of the question.

Continuing assuming a yes to rewelding... I then need to figure out how to add 1-3/16" or so to the height. It seems like such a small distance on 3" pipe that I don't know how to get it other than a bit of cheating with insertion depth. Perhaps replace with a hub-spigot elbow (spigot pointing up) then coupling then 3" spigot flange with the elbow-to-spigot joint cut down a bit? Is there a minimum joint insertion spec other than 'completely inserted'?

Of course, if I'm totally off base then I would certainly welcome recommendations for something completely different.

Thanks so much for any help you can offer.

Cheers,
-kyle

IMG_20150207_210138.jpg
 

Cacher_Chick

Test, Don't Guess!
Messages
5,458
Reaction score
213
Points
63
Location
Land of Cheese
You need to do what needs to be done to get to pipe. The vent should be in the wall right there. Is that a crawlspace below?
 

Kyle Altendorf

New Member
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Pennsylvania
I figure I can get something attached to the pipe but I'm trying to make sure I do it at least somewhat close to 'right'. Hopefully if anyone has to look at it again they can say something like "he sure wasn't a pro, but he did his homework and didn't totally hack it up". :] Clearly having only 1/4" insertion on a 3" joint would be unacceptable, but 1" might be ok? Or maybe not...

To the left there are a couple sink drains with vents so I assume that small leg of the wye is attached to one of those. I had some of the drywall off behind the sinks because of mold but not this section near the toilet. Below is a finished garage and behind the wall are the stairs. Move a few feet to the right and then below is the first floor bathroom. If it is relevant I can certainly provide more pictures and context.

Oh yeah, just to have another number handy the top of the broken elbow hub is presently about 5/8" below the OSB surface.
 

FullySprinklered

In the Trades
Messages
1,897
Reaction score
208
Points
63
Location
Georgia
Don't worry about the toilet flange. There's more than one kind and one of them will work.

Were it me, I would try to peel the hub off the pipe which joins the 90 to the 3x2 wye. That would leave something to glue your replacement 90 to. I would go back with a closet el which gives you a 4 inch pipe coming up. Then use the flange that's made to slide inside 4" pipe, after you cut the stub flush with the finish surface.

Cut off the ragged remains of your 90, leaving the hub part where it is. Make two diagonal cuts through the thickness of the hub one inch apart without notching the pipe as best you can. Get a hammer and two medium flat screwdrivers, and tap the first one into the end of the cut driving it between the pipe and the hub and see if will peel off. If it seems to cooperate, leapfrog the screwdrivers, tapping them around the pipe until the hub is gone. Do this veeeery slooowly. Get in a hurry and you're going to lose.

I failed at this often when I first started doing it. Mostly from getting in a hurry.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
Cut off the ragged remains of your 90, leaving the hub part where it is. Make two diagonal cuts through the thickness of the hub one inch apart without notching the pipe as best you can.
Cuts like this, or like a V?
pix_1.jpg
 

Kyle Altendorf

New Member
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Pennsylvania
I had hesitated with the 3" hub x 4" spigot because of the extra offset it would create (I assume) towards the vanity to the left. That said, I've presently got 17"-18" from center to the vanity so losing even an inch would be acceptable as it is over the 15" minimum I believe is specified. Sometimes I just make my life hard getting nitpicky about little offsets. Regardless, this approach seems to be the consensus here so I'll plan on that.

Oh, and this time I will actually be patient and careful getting the hub off rather than stupidly confident like before. I got one piece to chip out and then I went to town on it and... yep, broken, just like you would expect.

fullysprinklered said to get a 4x3 flange to fit inside the 4" spigot and hj, you said to get the 4" hub flange to slide OVER the 4" spigot... being an engineer I can imagine some technical details that could be relevant to this decision in some arcane situation but pragmatically, what's the difference here? I wouldn't have made much of this difference except that hj emphasized the over.

Also, the engineer in me doesn't like the idea of a metal flange directly on the tile nor the idea of a PVC flange holding my toilet down. So my overthinking then goes to a PVC flange with a metal repair ring over it. Which, of course, makes it taller which could/would be problematic and is most likely silly overkill. Perhaps a thin sheet of plastic under a stainless flange? Or, I'm just getting stupid at this point. Heck, it even crosses my mind to use tee-nuts and bolts rather than just screwing into the OSB to mount the flange.

I searched a little bit for plastic vs. metal flanges and expected to find lots of opinionated posts, but they didn't seem to come up. Comments welcome.

Thanks to all for your time and help.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
You could get a Sioux Chief Push-Tite Closet Flange that would fit inside or a compression toilet flange that would fit outside. Neither of these would involve gluing, and you could change the height a bit after cutting, or you could replace the flange at some future time. This would seem to be advantageous if you are not confident of gluing a flange into place correctly the first time.
 

Kyle Altendorf

New Member
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Pennsylvania
Ease of replacement isn't worth as much if it makes need for replacement more likely, but I would be more than happy spending an extra few bucks for the flexibility of a removable flange if it doesn't sacrifice functionality and durability.
 

Cacher_Chick

Test, Don't Guess!
Messages
5,458
Reaction score
213
Points
63
Location
Land of Cheese
I would focus on one thing at a time here. If the initial removal fails, the rest of the plan must change with it.
 

Kyle Altendorf

New Member
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Pennsylvania
Makes sense cacher, especially with the amazing responsiveness on this forum. In the mean time I got it cleaned up with only a little damage to the coupling pipe. What do you think, acceptable to continue? It's cleaned up enough that the replacement 3" hubXhub elbow I had already bought fits one end almost all the way on and the other about halfway. I figure I can do some final sanding to fit when I have the actual mating part.

I only ended up using the suggested hammer and pair of screwdrivers... plus an oscillating multi-tool with saw and again with scraper, mallet, chisel, awl, small screwdriver, utility knife, flashlight, cell phone (overkill but it can work as a poor mirror), and sandpaper. Wouldn't want any tool to feel left out. Oh, and perhaps the most important of all: safety glasses. Had them on before I started but the first flying chip still made me jump a little.

So, aside from the update, the question is: Is this level of damage acceptable to continue? If not, I'm pretty tempted to order one of the various hub reamers.

IMG_20150208_142535.jpg
 

FullySprinklered

In the Trades
Messages
1,897
Reaction score
208
Points
63
Location
Georgia
I'm proud of you, Kyle. Turned out better than my first one. It's not perfect, but it will seal up just fine. Be generous with the glue. Have your fittings ready, whatever you end up using, and have a level in hand. Place the level across the elbow and make sure it's flat to the world before the glue sets up. In mere seconds. I back away when HJ speaks up, usually. He started plumbing about the time I was born. My SS check hits the bank Wednesday.
 

Cacher_Chick

Test, Don't Guess!
Messages
5,458
Reaction score
213
Points
63
Location
Land of Cheese
Looks good. You could cut the pipe down 1/2" to get rid of most of the damage. Clean the debris out of the wye before you put everything back together.
 

Kyle Altendorf

New Member
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Pennsylvania
I'm glad to have made you proud, but don't forget that the reason I'm working on this one is that I butchered the first one (see the OP). :] Also, for the record, the big chip is because I started prying in the middle of the coupling pipe between the two hubs just like you did NoT say to do. Got the first cut out piece pried up and it tore out that big hunk. So, I was more patient than the first time but didn't completely follow the instructions you provided and paid a bit of a price. I think it's because the supply line was in the way and made it awkward to come in the end. Poor excuse, I know, but I couldn't find my stubby big tip screwdriver. (again, excuse)

I figured a level or the like would be a good idea but thanks for pointing it out. As to cutting it down a 1/2", I don't see the chip there as a significant hazard for a crack developing so I would think that leaving it all in place would be better due to the increased joint contact area providing strength and stiffness. And yes, I'd better remember to pull the rag out of the wye. That wouldn't be a fun one to leave in there...

Well, with a little luck the only question left for this forum is about the flange. Metal or plastic? Is it a big deal or just kind of a personal preference? Are the Push Tite (or other non-welded) versions appropriate or a cop-out that I should avoid? At this point there has been deference to HJ and therefore the provided recommendation of a 4" hub flange welded right on the trimmed elbow spigot is the front runner.
 

Cacher_Chick

Test, Don't Guess!
Messages
5,458
Reaction score
213
Points
63
Location
Land of Cheese
The better flanges for plastic pipe have a stainless steel ring for the toilet bolts and screwed down to the floor. The all plastic ones tend to break at the slots for the toilet bolts.
With a 3" pipe, I avoid any flange that fits inside the pipe because of the reduced I.D.
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks