Replacing a Lead Closet Bend

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & ' started by bet3z, Aug 28, 2010.

  1. bet3z

    bet3z New Member

    Messages:
    21
    My bathroom remodel was gaining momentum, and I ran into another snag. I was thinking about how to best get my new subfloor around the existing toilet flange when I noticed a couple problems with the closet bend.

    The bend appears to be lead, and it looks like the flange is brass. The flange seems to be soldered to the bend. The first issue is that a large crack has developed in the lead directly beneath the flange. It goes about a quarter of the way around the circumference of the pipe. The second issue is that there is a bit of rust where the bend meets the hub of the cast iron stack, and there are water stains on the wood beneath it.

    Considering both issues, I figured my best bet in tackling this myself would be to follow Terry's suggestion in the following thread - securing a new bend and flange in the old hub using a rubber donut:

    http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?34981-Another-Broken-toilet-flange-thread

    However, I'm wondering if there's anything special I need to do to deal with the corrosion on the hub. It doesn't appear to be extensive, but I think I need to do something about it.

    Any suggestions on dealing with it, or perhaps other approaches I could take in perhaps repairing what I have in place now?

    Thanks.
  2. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    The metal is not deteriorated by the "rust", but you WILL have to remove all the rust from the inside of the hub to allow the gasket to make a good seal. Terry chides me for not wanting to go to the trouble of using a gasket, because I prefer to install a new cast iron bend using a lead/oakum joint.
  3. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    I'm not chiding you, I just don't like lead.
    If the homeowner has the option to have his plumber replace with a cast iron closet bend, then that would be a good way to go. I don't see many homeoweners doing it though. This may be a task that is well worth hiring out.

    Anyone see the new EPA requirement for lead lately?
    Jamie and I took an eight hour class on Friday for certification as RRP's. The EPA has classified lead to be as dangerous as asbestos.
    The new requirements require containment and reports to the EPA when it's encountered in paint. The class didn't go into pouring lead, but you're not allowed to use an open flame on lead paint for removal.

    http://www.epa.gov/lead/

    Contractors Must Be
    Lead-Safe Certified

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2010
  4. bet3z

    bet3z New Member

    Messages:
    21
    If I had the proper tools for the lead/oakum joint, I might try it (the current one's lasted 60 years, so that's saying something), but since I don't I think I'll give the gasket a try. I will have to find a plumbing supply house nearby, because I am perpetually frustrated with the selection at the big-box stores. Not just for this. There's a bunch of stuff I've needed throughout this project that they didn't have. They had a clay pipe donut, but not one for a cast iron hub. The clay pipe one isn't the right size, is it?
  5. bet3z

    bet3z New Member

    Messages:
    21
    Also... Is there any advantage to going down to a 3" (like the bushing giving extra support or something)? I already cut a 4" hole in the plywood for my subfloor, so I thought I'd just go with the donut and 4" PVC.
  6. Andrew21

    Andrew21 Member

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    163
    Location:
    New York
    Wow, someone linked my thread! :)

    Anyway, it took me and my friend a while to get that lead bend out. We used a sawzall (not really necessary) to cut the lead piece out. Then we drilled into the oakum (make sure you have lots of bits!) and kept drilling in and around. We then used the sawzall to cut a bit closer to the end. We left about a 1.5 of an inch out just in case to grab something. We then took a small flat screwdriver and pryed the oakum out. Once that was out, we were able to bend the lead into pieces. That moved the entire lead piece. Took all the oakum out and bent the living hell out of the lead..crushing it like a can. After struggling with the piece, we couldn't figure out why it was moving but not coming out. There is a brass or something at the end that keeps the piece from falling out. We smashed the living hell out of the lead and that ring went with it. Wish I had pics for you.
  7. Andrew21

    Andrew21 Member

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    163
    Location:
    New York
    As Terry said in my thread..

    "The trapway on a toilet is 2"
    Nothing ever clogs in a 3" pipe unless the tile guy used your toilet drain for a garbage can, seen that done."
  8. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    I used 4" closet bends for my first 20 years in the business, and for the last 40, I have always used 4x3 bends. So far, I have never installed a 3" riser for the toilet connecion.
  9. bet3z

    bet3z New Member

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    21
    So 4" riser into 4x3 pipe into 4x3 bushing into 4x4 donut (or 4x3 donut w/o the bushing)?

    Thanks for your patience and advice. I just want to be sure I understand before I seal all this up!
  10. Andrew21

    Andrew21 Member

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    163
    Location:
    New York
    Whatever you do take a picture for us. =)
  11. bet3z

    bet3z New Member

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    Well, my visit to the plumbing supply store was a bit disappointing. The guy at the parts counter looked at me like I was crazy. He rummaged through some parts and came up with this:

    [​IMG]

    He admitted that he did not know if it was the right part. It says "SERCO 4" SERVICE MULTI TITE". What concerns me is the chamfer. Will this work? I can pretty easily find a 4x3 adapter, so I could do that and forgo the bushing.

    Thoughts?
  12. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    I normally use the 4" Fernco for the hub pipe, but the one you have should work too. Just pick up a 4" x 3" Flush bush, soap it up and tap it un using a block of wood and a hammer.

    [​IMG]
  13. dlarrivee

    dlarrivee New Member

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    A little bit stuck in the past, are we?
  14. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    14,763
    Location:
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    But it is old school craftsmanship. Not too many of the new guys would know what to do.
  15. dlarrivee

    dlarrivee New Member

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    1,172
    Location:
    Canada
    I'll be sure to use my asbestos heat blanket next time I need to do any soldering...
  16. bet3z

    bet3z New Member

    Messages:
    21
    I got the donut and bushing in, but it seems a bit problematic. The goofy donut I got doesn't fill the entire depth of the hub; there's an inch gap between where the donut ends and where the hub ends. It seems like water would pool in this gap, which would eventually cause a leak. The donut Terry posted looks much deeper. I'll go try to find one. The 4x3 might be my only option, unless I want to delay the project while I try to find the 4x4. I'll post on my progress...
  17. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,251
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    The "old way" worked for the Romans, and was the standard until the 70's, so it must have something going for it. As someone once said, "Don't be the first to embrace the new things, nor the last to discard the old". I can pour a lead joint in a few minutes. Trying to beat an closet bend elbow into a Ty-Seal gasket could take a lot longer, and might require mechanical assistance.
  18. bet3z

    bet3z New Member

    Messages:
    21
    OK. All the technical drawings I can find show that these donuts will not fill the entire 3-inch-long hub. Am I worried about nothing?
  19. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    14,763
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    I wouldn't worry about it. Even the old fashioned poured joint, which like hj mentions has been working fine for years; used oakum behind the lead. Now oakum is not at all waterproof either. The lead is, but there is just a little of that at the end, maybe even less then the rubber sleeve your are using.
  20. MACPLUMB 777

    MACPLUMB 777 TROJAN WORLDWIDE SALES RP

    Messages:
    679
    Location:
    Houston, Texas, United States
    How about packing a inch of oakum in the bottom of the hub then use rubber ?
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