replacing a bowl on a drake - anything else?

Should a rookie homeowner install a toilet?

  • Sure, why not. Just be careful with the wax ring.

    Votes: 3 60.0%
  • Probably not, call a plumber.

    Votes: 2 40.0%

  • Total voters
    5

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starfieldroad

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Our 6-7 year old toto drake has a fine crack in the flange which leads to very very slow seepage down one rear-side of the exterior. It has not been significant enough to cause dampness on the floor but it's time to replace it.

I have opted for a new bowl and not a completely new tank & bowl. We originally had an elongated bowl w/ CEFIONTECT / CeFiONtect and I have purchased an elongated bowl with ADA and no CEFIONTECT.

Other than a wax ring should I be installing other new parts at this time? Valve and everything else has been operating normally.

If I seat only the bowl and then attach the tank would you consider this a job a rookie homeowner could do?

BTW - no idea how the crack happened, whether it shipped that way or if the plumbers who did the original install did that for us.

Thanks for your thoughts and opinions.
 

Terry

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20% of shipped bowls are broken.
that's why I pick mine up locally. Less than 0.5% on that stuff.

Many people install the bowl first, and then attach the tank. At that many years, (6-7) you may be needing a new flapper and perhaps a fill valve seal. Some of that depends on your local water conditions and whether someone is dropping chlorine tablets in the tank.

If the closet flange is lower than the finished flooring, you may need two rings.
I would consider using new closet bolts too. We do on our installs.
 

WJcandee

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I'm not sure where the crack you're talking about is located, because the "flange" is the thing on the floor to which you attach the bowl. Regardless, what you are planning to do makes sense.

If it were I, I would first read the sticky at the top of the toilet forum for tips on how to install a Drake. I would also read toto's instructions for installing a Drake. That should all you need instruction-wise.

Assuming that you have the ability to lift the bowl and tank when empty, it's certainly a do-able DIY job.

Here is what I would replace:

(1) The braided hose betweent the water supply and the tank. It's typical to replace this when replacing the toilet. Is it critical? No. Is it a good idea? Yes.

(2) Wax ring or equivalent. This new product from Korky seems to be a good alternative to a wax ring. http://www.lowes.com/pd_586597-868-6000PK_0__?productId=50150240&Ntt=korky&pl=1&currentURL=?Ntt=korky&facetInfo= One advantage: you can wiggle the bowl a little while installing it without worrying about breaking the wax seal; you can even take it up and put it back down. With a wax ring, you absolutely cannot move the thing after smushing it into place. For a newbie at doing this, it may be helpful. I have done fine with wax for years now, but if I were doing it for the first time, I would use the Korky.

(3) New Tank To Bowl Set. You should get a good one, with two rubber washers, two metal washers, and two nuts for each bolt. You install them as follows: Bolt head and rubber washers inside tank; first metal washer and nut outside tank; 2nd rubber washer, metal washer and nut in that order under the bowl to secure the tank to the bowl. Here's a good one, although you don't need this quality, a good brass one will keep you happy for a long time. http://kscdirect.com/item/SIO+490-10500/SIOUX+CHIEF+MANUFACTURING_BOLT+DELUXE+TANK+BOLT+SET%0A Also, the official Toto one, TSU01D, is pretty good and is available online from many suppliers.

(4) New Tank to Bowl Gasket. Again, not totally essential, but useful. The official Toto one is THU131. That's a set of ten, which you don't need, but some online suppliers will sell you a single one. EDIT: They used to sell a single one, which is model 9BU024E. Google that. It's inexpensive and if you can find that, great. Otherwise, see if someone will sell you a single gasket from the THU131 set.

When you attach the tank, your goal is to watch all three points of contact (see the directions) and tighten the thing side-to-side, little by little, slowly, holding it vertical while doing it, until you are a business-card's thickness distance between the china on the tank and the china on the contact points on the bowl. You may have to release it and start again a few times before you get it level and tight; it took me 3 or 4 tries the first time I ever did it; now it's easy. The donut gasket will resist, and that's what the tank stands on. When you have no point of contact touching but all 3 almost touching, then the tank will be wobble-free and properly-positioned.

You can also get these Toto parts at a local plumbing supply store.
 
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WJcandee

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Oh yeah. Like Terry says, new closet bolts. These are the things that attach the toilet to the flange. No reason to reuse the old ones. If for some reason you are inspired to replace the fill valve and flapper, I would first check to see if you have the Korky-made fill valve. If you do, then you just need a little $3 cap from Home Depot, model R528. That will make your fill valve as good as new. The other fill valves that Toto sometimes uses do not offer this simple and easy renewal feature. If you want a new flapper, just get the Korky model 2021 Fits Toto flapper, available at Home Depot and many fine stores.
 

starfieldroad

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Thank you both for your helpful replies -- this place is so awesome.

Indeed, I may have mispoken when calling the location the flange - the crack is somewhere high at the rear. Yes, I have already read the sticky thread on drake installs.

The UPS box was waiting for me when I got back from errands today. It's upside down and does not look like it had the kid glove treatment. Before doing anything I called the customer helpline and they assured me that they would make it right if it was damaged.
 
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starfieldroad

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FWIW - we do not have the Korky valve, which means we have the TSU18A AFAIK. It has been behaving so I won't fuss with it (jinx).

Everything else I'm ordering online. toto gasket, toto bolt set, korky flapper, korky waxfree bowl seal w/ hardware, brasscraft supply line. total is just under $48 (incl shipping).
 

WJcandee

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Fantastic! Let us know how it goes, or is going while you're doing it if you have any questions!!
 

starfieldroad

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Working on this project today.

Korky has a good video overview of the process: http://www.korky.com/index.php?p=6000BP

Step one for me is taking the toilet apart and off so I can remove the bad bowl.

In lifting the tank clear of the bowl I see that the old gasket had begun to break down -- the gasket was stuck to the bowl opening and when I pulled the gasket up to throw away some of it stayed on the bowl, some got on my fingers.

I opted for THU131 since the single item was going to take too long to ship. These are tapered on the edge which fits into the bowl opening. The one I removed had a flat shelf and a lip on the under side... unless this was simply a matter of compression over time from the tank weight.

Now to get the old bowl up and wax cleaned up.
 
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starfieldroad

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There are visible cracks in the top of the bowl where the tank rests. At the least we had seepage of clean water from this area of the bowl.

Most of the wax ring came up with the bowl. It is hard to tell if there may have been seepage at the rear of the ring / flange.

One of the floor bolt holders / bolt slots on the closet flange is broken. The flange appears to be screwed down, not bolted, and is white ABS / PVC. Am investigating my next step.

I guess it's a trip to the store for a repair ring. Some of the rear screws are heavily corroded which I guess indicates seepage. I haven't been able to budge any of the clean screws either, I'm not sure if this is all cemented together or what. If I can get a repair ring to work then I won't have to bother with the screws at all.
 
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starfieldroad

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The outside ring of the flange in the one bolt slot lifted off completely with ease, it was broken at both ends.

I purchased the Plumb Pak toilet anchor flange repair kit (247812) but it's not clear how effective this will be. I have a layer or two of linoleum, plywood sheeting and then sub-flooring. The flange rests on subflooring in a hole cut into the top layer of flooring. This means it's not an easy slide in from the side for the metal repair bracket. With significant trimming of the metal I might be able to get it into place. Might.

If they still make the SuperRing (Superior Tool 21015) with the 4 tabs then I might be better served by that. Might.

I don't think I can use something like an Oatey metal ring since the flange face is so wide and the inner lip of the metal ring would stand proud, and I'd be screwing it into the flange plastic / ABS.

Access to the underside of this bathroom is possible through the basement and then along a narrow area, so replacing the flange completely could be done. I had a plumber do that a few years ago for the floor drain for the shower which stands next to this commode in the same room.

I'll post some photos in a minute.
 

starfieldroad

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the 2 rear screws are heavily corroded. I got the others out, they are rusted, and am leaving the rear ones in for now. One is so corroded that I cannot feel a slot, they are not philips screws; I think it might need to be drilled / tapped out.

I've got a rag in a plastic bag in the hole and am stopping for the day.

Photo #2 shows the lip from the side that I am dealing with.

Best laid plans... ha.
 

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starfieldroad

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Would using a flange spacer ring, screwing into the old flange face and using RTV sealant be an option?
 

WJcandee

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Ooops. Sorry I missed this when you were working yesterday. How is it going? Which of these questions still exist?
 

Reach4

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If you lay a board across your flange, how high off of the floor is it?

A metal repair flange may
I purchased the Plumb Pak toilet anchor flange repair kit (247812) but it's not clear how effective this will be. I have a layer or two of linoleum, plywood sheeting and then sub-flooring. The flange rests on subflooring in a hole cut into the top layer of flooring. This means it's not an easy slide in from the side for the metal repair bracket. With significant trimming of the metal I might be able to get it into place. Might.

I think that item will go atop the plastic, rather than a slide in. You would use 2 of the 4 holes on the arc, rather than two ears. I would go for bigger screws like maybe #12 Take your item to the hardware store when you pick out the wood screws that you will use. I am thinking that flat head screws might work. If you have enough clearance, I guess you could even go to 1/4 inch lag bolts.

This is similar.
 

JerryR

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You may want to consider replacing the PVC Flange. It's not difficult. Here is a YouTube video typically how to remove the old flange. I'm not a pro and I've replaced flanges twice.

 

starfieldroad

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Thanks guys. We have a second bathroom so this is not a pressed-for-time repair, though I do want to get it back in operation sooner rather than later.

The flange seems to connect to the >outside< of an elbow piece of pipe that connects up from below. In other words, the curved waste pipe fits into the flange. You can see this best in photo 3 I think.

Propak's instructions show the metal piece being lodged under the flange but it certainly seems like that video provides a clearer fix for my situation -- in mounting it on top of the flange to hold the bolt.

I am not opposed to replacing the flange entirely though I wonder if clearing out mine is going to be as easy as the one in the second video since it is the sleeve for the pipe and not the other way around. Any comment on that?

I don't have an exact measurement for how high off the floor it is, need a ruler not my tape measure, it looked to be about 1/4" when I rough checked it just now.
 

WJcandee

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The video was using the flange for inside fit (4" pipe), whereas yours will be outside-fit (3" pipe). Some manufacturers make flanges that do both. Same idea as the video, but a little different procedure. Let me see if I can find you a video for that...
 

starfieldroad

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Yes, I think lowes sells an Oatey which does inside & outside fit (as mentioned in the video).

This video shows, briefly, the removal of an outside fitting flange from the waste pipe


Our existing flange doesn't seem to match most currently available shapes / designs. Any comment about that or am I good to go as long as the pipe dimensions are OK?
 
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starfieldroad

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No progress today. I did pick up a 3-4 flange and primer+cement at the store.

I might take a stab at removing the old one tomorrow or it may have to wait until friday.
 

starfieldroad

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So... got back to this today.

1.) I replaced the 2 flange screws that I could get out and left the 2 rusted / corroded ones in place.

2.) screwed the metal piece from the Plum Pak repair kit onto the top of the flange. I drilled through the flange plastic to mount the metal ring. Seems quite a sturdy repair. No problem to get the tank bolt in place.

3.) The flange top edge seemed to be 0.5 inch off floor level. But when I used the fat foam ring from the Korky waxfree ring it seemed like way to much material to compress -- the bowl really wobbled around (yes, it says that in the instructions). So I opted for the thin ring (used in 0.5+ situations) and bolted the bowl to the floor. Seems secure. Important to keep the "base cap" from previous install (see toto directions) as my new bolt set didn't include those.

4.) The replacement supply line I bought is the wrong config so more final testing needs to wait until tomorrow.

5.) Installed new tank bolts.

6.) Installed new tank to bowl gasket. Fits fine, snugly up against the base of the tank.

7.) HOWEVER: the gap between the tank and the bowl is pretty big and no where close to contact with the 3 points. I've read around about it here. I think I'll give it 2 weeks with water in the tank and then see if it wants to go down further. The tank does not wobble significantly and until I get water in it I can't really say much more.
 
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