Replacement toilet research

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JMac

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My house currently has a builder grade standard height round bowl toilet that clogs more than it flushes. The house is early 70's cement slab with the septic tank less than 10' from the toilet in a straight line (not sure if the pipe is straight out, but it is pretty close as the tank is right outside the bathroom wall).
So for what I am looking for. elongated bowl, comfort height, good anti-clog reputation, decent water usage (1.28 is fine), and relatively inexpensive. I have been looking at the Totos, but their alphabet soup is confusing. I think I am looking at the CST744EL or maybe the CST454CEFG at the extremes with street prices ranging from low 2's to mid 3's depending on how much luxury I want to spring for.
Is the Double Cyclone that much better than the EMax? Is the CEFIONTECT worth its addition to the cost? Are their other models/brands in this price range (or cheaper) that might be a better fit for what I think I want?
 

SteveW

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I'll chime in on a couple points and let others who know more than I do handle some of the others.

I think the Double Cyclone rinse is a must-have. Really works well, and will never get clogged up like the small holes on the underside of the rim that most toilets use.

I have SaniGloss and frankly haven't been super impressed with it so not sure I'd pay extra for it.

But definitely go for a Toto with Double Cyclone.
 

WJcandee

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So for what I am looking for. elongated bowl, comfort height, good anti-clog reputation, decent water usage (1.28 is fine), and relatively inexpensive. I have been looking at the Totos, but their alphabet soup is confusing. I think I am looking at the CST744EL or maybe the CST454CEFG at the extremes with street prices ranging from low 2's to mid 3's depending on how much luxury I want to spring for.

Okay, so let's eliminate the alphabet soup. You've figured it out, though, so congrat's!

The CST744EL is the Original Drake in Comfort Height (L for Comfort Height, E for 1.28, 744 for the elongated bowl on the Original Drake). Your Original Drake is low-to-mid 2s.

Also available with a different look tank:
toto-cst744eln-01.jpg;width=220;height=220;bgcolor=White


That would be the CST744ELN (for "new tank").

The CST454CEFG is the Drake II, (F for Comfort Height here, E for 1.28, C for the Double Cyclone and G for CEFIONTECT). Quite a bit in one package. Low 3s.

You should also absolutely consider the Toto Entrada. It has all your requirements and costs less than the Drake. If you like its look, it's a winner. It is a new model and already has had lots of positive commentary from customers who have installed it. Low 2s. 1000-gram MAP rating, which isn't the only measure of performance but is as good as it gets on that criterion.
CST244EF in the elongated.
toto-cst244ef-01.jpg;width=300;height=300;bgcolor=White
 

JMac

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I did look at the Entrada, but wasn't too sure about the aesthetics of it. And it is only about $20 cheaper than the Drake 744EL from the supplier I am using to get price comparisons from (and will probably end up buying from too).
Is there any advantage to the 'New' tank? It appears to be about an inch narrower, but that is the only thing I could decipher from the specs.
The more I let this stew in my head, the more I am leaning towards the 454CEFG. The biggest thing holding me back here is the CEFIONTECT... our water is very hard and I don't have a water softener in the plans yet (a topic for another thread another day). Would the double cyclone be an advantage here over the Ecoflush or are they about on par here?
 

WJcandee

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Well, let's see. The CEFIONTECT would actually help, I think, keeping the hard water stains off the porcelain or make it easier to clean. Just a brush and some normal toilet cleaner should do it. But you're right, you can't use a pumice stone on the CEFIONTECT.

There is no functional advantage to the New Tank; it's just a different look option for a solid-performing toilet. Boxier, different style. That's all.

The Drake II (CST454CEFG) is a very, very popular toilet, for good reason. The Double Cyclone gives a little better bowl rinse, and since it doesn't have rim holes around the circumference of the bowl, might serve you a little better with hard water because you don't have a zillion little holes to clog up with buildup. The double cyclone consists of two larger holes aimed sideways. Both it and the E-Max are 1.28gpf; the E-Max has rim holes, the double cyclone has the horizontal jets. They are both good flushes.

I went through the same detailed analysis before installing the first Toto in our house, so I can empathise. Feel free to come on back with any questions! And let us know how it all turns out!
 

Wallijonn

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How long do you intend to stay in the house? Is it for the Master Bedroom?

If you buy a Drake you may second guess yourself later on, wishing that you had bought the better cleaning toilet (some have complained that they have to clean it more often. All toilets will need occasional, if not weekly, cleaning.) If you don't buy the Drake II because you want to spend as little as possible, then later on you may wish that you had gotten the better toilet.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/toto-drake-toilet-product-review.5241/

Some women don't like elongated toilets because some supposedly tend to splash in the front. (The Drake doesn't splash upwards when it flushes.) The same may be true of the Drake II (front splashing.) Other members will have to chime in. Still other women don't like ADA height toilets if they are of small stature. My mother is like that.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index....ii-gwenyth-owner-comments-and-pictures.26275/

I didn't go with the CEFIONTECT because some have said that it doesn't help all that much with staining, while others have said that it does. I thought that it was impractical since it costs $100 more and since I was buying two toilets. I love keeping my Drakes clean. It's like the guy who likes to wax his car every weekend.

I went with the Drake because of the water spot size, the Drake being bigger. It wasn't until I saw our maintenance man at work turn down the Eljer toilet to about 0.8gpf that I figured that it doesn't really make all that much difference, just as my going with the Drake 1.6gpf because I feared that 1.28gpf wouldn't provide enough bowl cleaning, it wasn't until I actually used the 1.28gpf Drake that I saw that it flushed just as well as the 1.6gpf Drake. Which is why I consider the Drake 1.28gpf ADA Elongated probably the best bang for the buck. The Entrada seems to be the new best bang for the buck champ, now, if you can get past the looks (which just begs the question as to why anyone would buy a A.S., some Glaciers, AquaSource or Kohlers since they aren't the greatest looking tanks.)

But, if I had to do it all over again, I probably would go with the CST454ECF with a slim Kohler seat for my master bedroom. I'd probably go with a regular height 1.28gpf toilet with the thick seat for the hallway for children and those that don't like ADA height toilets.

cst454_zoom.jpg


As far as streaking goes, I suspect that all water efficient toilets streak and spot. Since I'm single I don't worry about streaking under the water line because subsequent urine flushes typically clean them. Spotting above the water line is another matter, though. For that I have a toilet brush and some dish washing detergent, which I apply immediately least the spots harden. Maybe twice a month they spot. Depends on my diet and whether I've drunk very cold or very hot beverages in the morning. ymmv.

If you're thinking of the Drake II 1.28gpf - go for it. It's a handsome toilet. The Drake 1.28gpf ADA Elongated, CST744EL, is nice too. The difference will be how much space is behind the tank. With my Drake it is about 1.25", The Drake II is 13/16"; you can cheat a little to get it a little closer by working with the flange bolt position.

I guess what I'm trying to say is - don't cheap out by buying a cheaper big-box-store toilet. Treat yourself to something you will take pride in - especially since you will probably be living with it for another 20 years. Otherwise you may end up like me and will always be second guessing yourself. Still... I love my ADA Drake. I just think that I would love the Drake II even more. :D
 
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JMac

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LOL. If I was going to cheap out with a bigbox unit, I would get an AquaSource special. I installed one at my parents' house a year or so ago, and to the best of my knowledge it hasn't given them any problems.

As for my place, it is an only bathroom (one of the mistakes I made in buying this place). I don't plan on moving anytime soon, unless we win the lottery. No kids, and company is rare. I need to do some other work in the bathroom too, and there is still more that is just a want to do in there. But that is for another forum on here.

So yes, I am really leaning towards the CST454CEFG (Drake II ADA elongated), but need to take it up with the wife now (mostly about the ADA and elongated parts). I'm not that anal about cleaning the toilet myself, so the more it does itself the better. Squirting a little liquid and swirling it around with the brush once a week or so is fine with me.
 

JMac

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I picked up the 454CEFG, but I won't be able to attempt the install until Saturday. The reason I say attempt is knowing my luck with this house, when I get the old toilet pulled out, there will be something else wrong that needs attention before the new toilet can go in. Either way, I will find out what kind of work I am looking at for later March or April when I continue the bathroom redo (I am sure I will have to pull the tank again, and maybe the bowl too, to get behind it to replace the damaged wall).
 

SteveW

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Since you are planning to pull the toilet in a couple of months, you might want to consider a waxless seal system like the Fernco or Fluidmaster. They make it much easier and less messy than a wax ring if/when you pull the toilet (e.g. to paint or paper behind it).
 
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I picked up the 454CEFG, but I won't be able to attempt the install until Saturday. The reason I say attempt is knowing my luck with this house, when I get the old toilet pulled out, there will be something else wrong that needs attention before the new toilet can go in. Either way, I will find out what kind of work I am looking at for later March or April when I continue the bathroom redo (I am sure I will have to pull the tank again, and maybe the bowl too, to get behind it to replace the damaged wall).

I think you will like the CEFIONTECT. It takes care of "below the waterline smears" in my experience with Drake I and II. The smears happen but over several minutes lift off and disappear with the next flush. The required periodic cleaning came from above the water line on the Drake I's as the result of occasional spatter. So far my Drake II has not needed this cleaning, but it has only had 1/4 use for a month.

I prefer pulling the whole toilet rather than risking a problem with recompressing the tank gaskets. These toilets aren't overly heavy and if you have a partner to line up the bolts from below it is pretty easy. If you go with wax, buy an extra wax ring in case you have a problem, return the extra later if things go smoothly. And you might want to buy an extra thick one just in case--three of the four Toto's I have installed the waste flange was significantly below the surface of the tile/flooring and required the thick wax ring (or spacer) to seal properly. That's not a fault of the toilet, it is an issue with the flooring not being considered when placing the waste connections. Even in a new home this was an issue--I wasted a standard wax ring when I recognized that I got zero compression when I placed it.
 

SteveW

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Wax does not standup to heat making it a poor choice for use with radiant floor heating.
Fernco's Wax Free Seals are made from PVC and will not break down. Our seal is designed to be a permanent part of the plumbing system upon installation.

2
If there is a main line backup, wax will not hold much head pressure and is likely to fail.
Fernco's Wax Free Seals are UPC approved. UPC certified to provide a water and airtight connection between the water closet and sanitary drainage system. Conforms to the industry standard ASTM A 1045

3
Anytime the flange is lower than the finished floor, you need more wax. Unless the flange is installed "over" the floor, it takes more than a single wax ring to seal.
Fernco's Wax Free Seals long neck will make a positive secure connection regardless of flange height.

4
Each time the toilet is removed a new wax seal must be installed.
With Fernco's Wax Free Seals toilet can be pulled and replaced without changing the seal.

5
Wax seal removal is a disgusting, sticky, messy job.
Fernco's Wax Free Seals are Clean, Quick, and Easy to install or remove.


***************************************************

Above copied from Fernco's website. See #3 in particular.

I have used both Fluidmaster and Fernco waxless toilet seals and prefer the Fernco. The "funnel" on it is sufficiently long to accommodate for pretty low flanges (e.g. if a tile floor was added, making the flange too low).
 

Wallijonn

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JMac,

How did the install go? What are your initial impressions? I would have pulled the old toilet and repaired the wall before installing the new Toto. Might mean using a neighbour's toilet, though.
 

JMac

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The removal of the old toilet was pretty straight forward. But looking at what was revealed left me shaking my head. I have some pics I want to upload, but I have to get to a computer I can hook the camera up to.

I used the Saniseal waxless ring (couldn't find a Korky in the first 3 stores I went to - 2 HDs and a Lowes - but I did see where they should have been on the shelf), and it seems to be working as for sealing in the waste, but the toilet didn't want to sit on the floor all the way. But after leveling it, I think this is as much an issue with the floor, as I had to shim the back between 3/16 and 1/4 on one side and between 1/16 and 1/8 on the other, but the front sits flat on the floor asis.

I did a closer exam of the wall while the toilet was out, and the damage is a lot more severe than even I originally thought. I am going to have to replace the wall board from the vanity probably to the outside wall, which includes behind the toilet and the head side of the tub/shower (behind the surround). We have guests coming, and then we are going to be out of town for a week, so I didn't want to get started on that part until after we get back. While I have that wall open to the studs anyway, I was going to replace the tub/shower guts (still has the old 3 handle non-balanced system from the early 70s) and also put in a better vanity and mirrored medicine cabinets. This extended remodel is one of the reasons I went with a waxless seal.

I definitely like the Toto. The flushing action works really good; but I have yet to put it to the big test with one of my heavy duty bombs. And the wife likes it too, which is a huge plus (as long as she doesn't find out how much I paid for it LOL).
 

JMac

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474.JPG

This is the worst part of the wall. There are parts of it I probably could push my finger through.
476.JPG

A lot of the 'caulk' ring was a hard substance, I'm thinking grout or plaster-of-paris. I had to take a hammer to most of the rear part to take it down to the tile level. About a third of the rear of the waste pipe was plugged with gunk which I scraped away to about a depth of a foot into the waste pipe along with cleaning the wax residue etc.
479.JPG

Here is the Toto installed. I haven't caulked it yet... wanted to check for leaks and as I was going to be pulling it again at least once in the next couple of months.

 
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Wallijonn

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I can see where someone caulked the old toilet a lot too much. You definitely don't want to silicone it down, maybe a thin bead of the product Terry advocates around just the front half of the bowl.

Man, it hurts looking at that sewer pipe...

I suspect that you may have black mold behind that wall. Be very careful. Use a respirator while tearing it down. Is there a window in the bathroom that would allow the removal of material while you seal off the bathroom to the rest of the house?

If you do have black mold, and it's not because of water from pipes it may be because of rain water. That would really be bad. I really hope that I am wrong and that all goes well.

Yeah, doing a renovation stinks. My brother is going though the same thing - getting rid of a garden bathroom (really small and useless bathtub/shower), moving a wall, installing a full size bathtub or shower in his Florida house. Soon I will have to have my shower replaced because of the small tiles. Re-grouting isn't an option - I want something new and fashionable.

The Toto looks pretty, though. Don't forget to replace the water valve with a 1/4 turn ball cock valve. I use Scott's single ply 1000 sheet toilet paper.
 

Onokai

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(But definitely go for a TOTO with Double Cyclone.)

I bought two for our home and never looked back-absolutely great functional toilets'-been very happy for years now with them.
I have the TOTO wood seat on one and toto plastic on spare bath-that wood seat is pricey but fantastic.
Mark
 

JMac

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(But definitely go for a Toto with Double Cyclone.)

I bought two for our home and never looked back-absolutly great funtional toliets-been very happy for years now with them.
I have the toto wood seat on one and toto plastic on spare bath-that wood seat is pricey but fantastic.
Mark
It is already here and installed.. see last picture above. Yes, I did go with the Drake II with Double Cyclone, but I have a composite Bemis seat on it right now.

I can see where someone caulked the old toilet a lot too much. You definitely don't want to silicone it down, maybe a thin bead of the product Terry advocates around just the front half of the bowl.

Man, it hurts looking at that sewer pipe...

I suspect that you may have black mold behind that wall. Be very careful. Use a respirator while tearing it down. Is there a window in the bathroom that would allow the removal of material while you seal off the bathroom to the rest of the house?

If you do have black mold, and it's not because of water from pipes it may be because of rain water. That would really be bad. I really hope that I am wrong and that all goes well.

Yeah, doing a renovation stinks. My brother is going though the same thing - getting rid of a garden bathroom (really small and useless bathtub/shower), moving a wall, installing a full size bathtub or shower in his Florida house. Soon I will have to have my shower replaced because of the small tiles. Re-grouting isn't an option - I want something new and fashionable.

The Toto looks pretty, though. Don't forget to replace the water valve with a 1/4 turn ball cock valve. I use Scott's single ply 1000 sheet toilet paper.
Yeah, black mold is my first impression too. I believe it is from the tub and the surround along the front top and side and not from any pipes or the window (the window is pretty much centered on the long side of the tub, and while there are issues there too, I don't think it is the cause of this). I am thinking of getting a camping toilet and having it in the laundry room while I do that part of the remodeling; not the best but it is at least a workable option.
 

JMac

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Now that I have had the Toto installed for a week, I will give some more feedback.
Overall, both the wife and I are very pleased with it (and spoiled now).

BUT>>>> I succeeded in plugging it up today. Or let me rephrase that... I had to use the plunger for the first time today. Nothing was unusual about my deposit, and I used the same if not less amount of TP as usual (and I'm not extravagant with my TP usage either). But I'm not totally sure where the problem actually was; as was noted in my install above, it very well could have been in the waste pipe and not the toilet itself.

The TP needs to be changed. Right off I don't know what kind it is, but I wasn't digging it before and I'm sure it is part of my problem now. It is nice feeling, but it is too heavy of a paper (must be one of the 'quilted' kind and/or 4+ply). I need to tell the wife to go back to the stuff we were using before.
 
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Sorry and surprised to hear that you had a clog. I've seen an 8-ball shaped deposit and paper effectively block a Toto Drake I, but that is my only experience with that in 6 years. For your sake I hope it wasn't a more substantial problem with the waste plumbing/venting. I've wanted to change out an old farmhouse toilet at my grandmother's place with a Toto, but I suspect that the drain and vent were bigger culprits than the toilets that often clog (probably all need to be redone and a new septic tank installed...) I have some other relations on septic that would benefit at family get togethers, but I have not yet made the proposal to change out on my dime.

For comparison: the first night in this 2 yr old home my son managed to clog a toilet (builder grade Sterling that all the major builders use around here--saw them in nearly every home we toured.) The kids have both commented how much better these Sterlings work than the Sterlings in the rental that required full handle hold down/full tank flush to work properly (1980's vintage plumbing, but ~2005/6 vintage toilets). I've got a replacement Toto assembled in the hall as I type this.

The one major negative of the newer Drake II's is the ADA height that is now standard unfortunately. It adds over an inch and that results in a less natural seating position--less comfortable as it presses on the lower thigh. People with bad knees prefer this, the other 90%+ of the population would benefit from a more effective seating position. Given the choice in the same model I would only use the Drake II for a common/guest bathroom. I'm probably going to change my order for the final toilet tomorrow to the Eco-Drake I and put it in the kid's bathroom.
 
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