Replace Gate valve (no pipe slack)

[waefish]

Hi Terry,

I need to replace two gate valves in my home. One valve is locked up, and the other appears to have a broken stem. The regulator can be remove but there is no play in the pipes that will allow me to separate and reconnect the joints. The two pipes that feed outdoor faucets exit to the outside through the stucco wall and have no play in them. behind the valves is the back side of a stucco wall and there is very little space between the valves and the wall maybe 1/4 inch.

My question is how do I remove the old valves when there is no play in the pipes to separate the joints. I could cut one or more of the copper pipes but there's still no movement in the pipes that will allow me to put it back together.

How would a professional complete this replacement?

Thanks for your advise.
Wayne

 

[Smooky]

The valve on the left looks like a matco, that type of valve is still made, you might be able to take it apart and rebuild the valve. I can't make out the tag on the other valve.

How critical is the depth of the valve in the wall? Could it be stepped out a few inches? You have got enough room on the two bottom pipes and the top right. You may have enough room on the top left but it is close. You could sweat on 90 degree elbows on each of the 4 pipes pointing straight out and rebuild off of that.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Gary Swart]

Looks like you could use copper unions. I would certainly replace this gate valves with ball valves.

 

[Jadnashua]

Repair couplings are designed for what you want to do...they do not have the center stop, so you can slide it completely onto the pipe stub, insert the pieces, then slide it back, centered over the joint, and then you solder it. A ball valve would be preferable, but you might not have enough length to install one on both sides.

 

[Flapper]

You use what is called a 'slip coupling' for connecting two pipes that have no play outwards, but you still need to be able to bend the pipe sideways.
ugh... see that is a poorly designed assembly there. No space for future repairs.
I recently had a similar problem; I closed the main gate valve of the house and it broke (after closing the water heater gate valve, which broke, so to fix it I had to shut the water off...); since everything was squeezed together there was no space to add fittings so to fix it I came up with the "up-and-down" idea.
Luckily your "into house" valve is threaded and there is some pipe space under the "from meter" valve. There's also space in the upper-right-corner "to faucet"; there's very little space on the upper-left "to faucet" but just barely enough to fit a fitting on.

 

[SteveW]

I'm not getting why there appears to be a pressure regulator between the pipes?

 

[SteveW]

OK, now I kind of get it -- so one outdoor hose bib is at full city pressure and the other is regulated down. Why would they do that?

 

[Flapper]

OK, now I kind of get it -- so one outdoor hose bib is at full city pressure and the other is regulated down. Why would they do that?

so one has some gundy in it for when you want the ol' gundy to wash your car or something

 

[wallbobby]

Could you just slice the whole assembly out (4 cuts) then sweat on some pex adapters, and rebuild the whole thing with pex/new valves?

 

[Flapper]

Could you just slice the whole assembly out (4 cuts) then sweat on some pex adapters, and rebuild the whole thing with pex/new valves?

Yes he could and that's what I would do. But looks like he will solder. I'd like to see the end result. When our gate valve broke I redid the thing with copper and it failed; leaked; so I redid most of it (except the ball valve and before that) with push fittings.

 

[Jadnashua]

A repair coupling does not require any bending or spreading of pipe that some of the other fittings require, and, as long as you have enough length to slide it to insert the new bits, it works just fine.

FWIW, if you don't solder things often, a self-tinning flux (one with powdered solder in it) is easier to work with than most of the modern fluxes without it. It's really easy to burn all of the flux out of things if you don't do it regularly...with the tinning fluxes, as soon as the solder in the flux melts, if you quickly add the solder to finish it of, you shouldn't overheat...it acts like a big signal flag, telling you the joint is hot enough to finish up.

 

[dosby]

something like this?

 

[Flapper]

something like this?
View attachment 35516

Who are you replying to?
I used two 1" 90˚ elbows.

 

[dosby]

Who are you replying to?
I used two 1" 90˚ elbows.

replying to Wayne, looks like this slip valve could help in his case

 

[Dj2]

For a neat looking job, remove the whole darn thing and start anew. Cut in 4 places as mentioned before. You can use the same PRV if it's not defective.
This time, make it align better. If it's out of alignment, it creates future weak points.

 

[waefish]

Thanks for all the input.

It looks like I'm going to have to cut out the whole thing and rebuild. However a few follow-up questions...

1. are the internal parts for the valves available for purchase anywhere? I'm thinking if I could just replace the stem and gate with new ones it would save me a whole bunch of trouble. The valve on the left is a Matco - has markings 1" 200 WOG and 514. The one on the right, hard to read, but looks like is says Pioneer, 1" 200 WOG

2. Do I really need two valves? couldn't I just install one valve on the meter side and then connect everything else on the house side of the regulator?

3. From a few comments it sounds like I should be replacing the valves with Ball Valves. Is that a better option and are they comparable in quality?

Thanks again
Wayne

 

[Flapper]

1. are the internal parts for the valves available for purchase anywhere? I'm thinking if I could just replace the stem and gate with new ones it would save me a whole bunch of trouble. The valve on the left is a Matco - has markings 1" 200 WOG and 514. The one on the right, hard to read, but looks like is says Pioneer, 1" 200 WOG

You can replace the parts... if you can open the valve. Which you might not be able to. I tried to open the gate valves and the top would not budge. I tried many times with lots of force.

2. Do I really need two valves? couldn't I just install one valve on the meter side and then connect everything else on the house side of the regulator?

Unless you want to have the two hose bibbs on with the rest of the house off, no, the red valve is pretty much useless.

3. From a few comments it sounds like I should be replacing the valves with Ball Valves. Is that a better option and are they comparable in quality?

If you had ball valves there, you would never have this problem to begin with. Ball valves are an order-of-magnitude better than gate valves.

 

[Flapper]

So, are you going to use copper and solder to fix this?
I would really like to see the end result.

 

[waefish]

Yes I will use copper/solder (I've done this many times before) and I think I'll go with one ball valve.
I'll just have to figure out the best position for the valve and regulator.

Thanks
Wayne

 

[dosby]

Two valves may make sense if you are planning to go on long vacation during dry months and still have your garden green
Then you would shut down the in-house supply and keep the irrigation pipes running. Unexpectedly big irrigation bill is way better than fixing water damages in the house.