Only 8.45 inch rough to replace American Standard 4049

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MBWD

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I have a 1920's house with a small bathroom on the first floor. The toilet that is currently in the bathroom is:

American Standard 4049 (C72, Feb7, Made in USA)
4 bolts: center of back bolt is 9 inches from back of wall (the actual wall) [The number of bolts suggest that it is a 10 inch rough, as I think AS only made the 4049 with 4 bolts in a 10 incher. But that back bolt is definitely no more than (and maybe a hair less than) 9 inches from the wall.]
26.5 inches from wall to front of toilet
20.5 inches width of tank lid
14.5 inches from floor
The toilet does not flush sufficiently and constantly clogs. There is more than a fair amount of lime-type material in the base of the bowl, as well as inside the hole toward the front that pushes water in. I have tried to pumice it all out, but I can't get what I can't reach. I've also had it snaked.

I was thinking of replacing it, as it uses a ton of water and does not actually flush larger items.

But the 9" rough is obviously a problem. The 4049 model currently fits (with the tank flush against the wall), so I am hoping that a regular 10 inch will work. The CadetPro 10" Right Height has all the right specs except the rough.

Would this work? Would I need an adapter? Or do I need to move the flange?

Thanks!
 

WJcandee

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Post a picture, including the use of a tape measure to the center of that rear bolt.

One option might be the 10" Toto Drake (original Drake), CST744SF.10. The spec sheet shows 1-1/8" between the rear of the base and the wall (baseboard) and 7/8" between the back of the tank and the finished wall on a true 10" rough, so if you have 9-1/8" to work with, it should fit against the wall no problem. If it's a little tight, a good plumber can cheat it forward at least 1/4" on most flanges. That's a toilet with a GREAT flush.
 

Terry

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You can move the closet bolts off center 3/8" on a 3" drain. If you have a 4" drain you can move it more than that.
It should be doable.

But to be sure, why not pull the bowl and know for sure what you have there?
 
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MBWD

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Thanks all. The Toto won't work because the bathroom is too small front to back. Here are the pics you asked for. As you can see, the toilet is backed right up to the wall, and has little room toward the front of the bowl.

Just to be clear, that second pic with the tape measure is not quite to the wall. There is some baseboard.




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Jadnashua

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Some of the older toilets extra set of bolts just go into the floor to help hold it in place. The ones at 12" could easily be the ones over the flange, and a 12" RI toilet would work. To verify, it would only cost a wax ring to pull it and look. You might be able to tell if you just popped the cap and looked carefully at what's beneath - tile or wood, or the metal from the flange.
 

WJcandee

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I would love to see a picture of the trapway and a picture of the bowl with the seat up. That might let us know more about which bolt is the flange without you having to pull it up.
 

MBWD

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Well, I finally took the existing toilet off the flange to take a look. There are only 2 bolts to the floor (the front two do nothing) -- and they are only 8.45 inches from the wall.

I tried to install an American Standard Cadet 3 in the space to replace the existing 4090. Based on the he Cadet 3 appeared to be the better choice than the Toto Drake because there is a little more space between the back of the toilet and the wall (~2" v. 1 1/8").

Unfortunately, in practice, neither would fit because the bolts are just too close to the wall. The Cadet tank hits the back wall and slants forward. It needs about 1/2" more to fit.

I know these are not well regarded, but would an option be to use an offset flange? I really only need about 1/2" and a full inch would give me a little room. But even after reviewing a number of online posts regarding installing offset flanges, I'm not clear on what needs to be done. My current flange is a rusted metal that looks like this (unfortunately, I didn't take pictures):

MetalFlange.resized.png


It is similarly rusted (except there are notches, rather than a curved channel, for the bolts). It is also surrounded by tile

To install the offset flange, I am guessing that I would need to cut out some of the tile in front (away from the wall) to fit it in. And then somehow attach it to the floor. I'm not clear how to attach it to the floor. Here are the best instructions I could find, but it seems vague on the floor part.

Has anyone done this and/or can provide some guidance?

Here is the offset I was considering. It is ABS plastic with a metal ring.

Genova_85160.jpg
 
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Terry

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The outlet on that bowl is about 2"
The horn is about 2-5/8"
If you were to shift the closet bolts away from the wall, you may be able to pick up the 1/2" you need by offsetting over the pipe (hole) you have.
 

MBWD

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Thanks for the reply Terry. How do I do that? Would I have to replace the entire flange -- the current flange is essentially a rusted disc with no discernable screws to remove.

Is the offset flange a bad idea? Would it work if moving the flange doesn't get me the 1/2"?
 

Reach4

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Thanks for the reply Terry. How do I do that? Would I have to replace the entire flange -- the current flange is essentially a rusted disc with no discernable screws to remove.
You would use a repair flange to hold the closet bolts.

red_ring_03.jpg


If you have a 4 inch hole in the floor and a 2 inch hole above that, can you see that you might offset the centers? The picture in the following linkdoes not apply to you except if you just look at the closet flange hole and the orange outlet hole representations, you can see the idea. https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?attachments/img_2-jpg.35613/ Actually, it could apply to you in that you would have the option of using a 10 inch Unifit with a different toilet, and doing the same kind of thing. Except instead of using a 12 inch unifit for a 13+ inch rough, you would be using a 10 inch Unifit for a 9- rough. The 10 inch Unifit plus toilet would be bigger bucks.



Is the offset flange a bad idea? Would it work if moving the flange doesn't get me the 1/2"?
How would you put that offset flange you pictured in #7 onto the rusty flange that you pictured in #7?
 
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MBWD

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Thanks Reach4. The picture you link is interesting. The issue I have is that I'm not sure moving the closet bolts from the yellow "intended closet bolt location" arrows to the red "actual closet bolt" arrows can get me 1/2 inch without bringing the bolts too close together to fit in the holes in the toilet (i.e., as you move around the circle, the bolts will get closer and closer). I think the only way to find out is to try it. Are repair flanges generally acceptable practice?

Regarding putting the offset flange into the rusty flange, I have no idea -- that was kind of my question. I assume that to install the offset flange, I would have to: (A) cut off the top of the rusted flange; (B) maybe cut a little of the downpipe; and (C) cut some of the flooring away in "front" (away from the wall) of where the rusty flange sits. But I don't know, as I've never used an offset flange. Can you let me know?

I guess the third alternative would be to move the downpipe over and create a new hole about 1 inch further out. But I'm guessing that's the most expensive options.
 

Reach4

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Repair flanges are accepted. The sealing is done by wax to the existing ring, so the repair ring like the red one above are just holding the closet bolts. I have seen black ones in the store recently.

Lifting the existing toilet, and measuring, you could see what you are up against. This would probably be time consuming to measure and plan.

There is some clearance between the toilet horn and the floor height. There are differences in toilets, but this picture illustrates the space thing. I am thinking the horn is deeper in this picture than average, but I am not sure.
index.php
 

Terry

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red_ring_03.jpg


If I were there, I would have taken my rotohammer and some 1/4" x 1.5" lead anchors and installed the ring to hold the bolts at 9-1/4" from the back wall. Not the floor molding, but the wall where the tank will be. The tank is what you need to clear.
You don't want to break up the floor. That would be the very last resort.
 

MBWD

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Terry, I want to be clear on what you are saying. You would use the rotohammer to install anchors in the floor that would hold the repair flange down (e.g., the 6 screw heads in the image you posted)? And you would do that so that the flange bolts (the two that secure the toiled to the flange) are 9.25 from the wall -- even if that resulted in the repair flange overlapping part of the hole? Do I have that right?

That makes sense, but I would need to confirm (wish I had done it this past weekend when we had the damn thing open) that doing so would result in the toilet horn still sitting over the inside of the flange -- that is, that the hole in the toilet still lines up with the whole in the floor. If by moving the flange away from the wall I have offset the flange and the hole too much (in the picture above the red repair flange would be moved down about 1/2 inch and would be partially covering the hole) -- then I am out of luck, correct?

If that is the case, what is the next best option?
 

Jadnashua

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First, to replace the existing toilet flange with an offset, you'd almost certainly need to tear up some of the floor as you can't just set it into the existing flange...the new flange must seal to the pipe. Second, you don't want to use one with the painted steel like you posted a picture of, if you were to use one, you'd want one with a SS ring that wouldn't rust out.

Third, as long as the ID of the horn and the horn itself will still fit into the funnel of the flange, you can move it as far forward as you want. How far will depend on the actual toilet and the ID of the pipe and size of the flange itself. I do not know if they make a SS repair flange, but should you go that route, I'd look, and if you can get one, get it in SS. A hammer drill or a rotohammer and proper drill bit typically can make quick work of drilling through concrete. If the floor tile is porcelain, you might have trouble getting the hole made, and a diamond bit would work better. Older, bisque type tile, or porcelain that is older, tends to be softer, and a carbide bit can drill through it easily. Modern porcelain is nearly as hard as diamond, and laughs at carbide. The hammer function might shatter it, but in the process, probably would shatter the carbide, too...meaning, you may not get more than one or two holes from the drill bit, if that.
 

MBWD

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I was able to install the repair flange using a rotohammer to drill through the porcelain and concrete. I could not find a stainless steel repair flange, so the one I used looks identical to the red one pictured above.

We were able to get the full 1/2 inch just by moving the bolts down the repair flange grooves 1/2 inch. We could have gotten another 1/2 to 1 inch by offsetting the repair flange away from the wall (probably should have -- in case the next toilet has less clearance). That was a pretty major win -- so thanks to all the posters on this page!!

The only remaining issue is that the repair flange on top of the old, rusted flange made the toilet horn no longer flush with the floor. So there is a lot more play (mostly front to back) than you would like to see in a toilet. I'm hoping that this is acceptable and the only remaining question is: What is the best way to take care of the extra play?
 

Reach4

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The only remaining issue is that the repair flange on top of the old, rusted flange made the toilet horn no longer flush with the floor. So there is a lot more play (mostly front to back) than you would like to see in a toilet. I'm hoping that this is acceptable and the only remaining question is: What is the best way to take care of the extra play?
I think you are saying that when you set the toilet in place, the toilet rocks on the horn fore and aft.
That doesn't sound too good. It seems to me that the horn is probably passing through the big hole of the red repair flange and is rocking on the old rusty flange, right? On the other hand, it could be rocking on the floor. Maybe set a piece of paper over the hole before testing the fit. See where the contact is happening.

Rocking and leveling is normally handled with shims. I would put a level on the toilet, and see how much shimming it would take to make things level.

I suggest you take a look and post back with your findings. I am not a plumber.
 

MBWD

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I had some of those plastic shims of varying sizes from a prior install and used them on the back as Terry suggested. Although the gap is pretty big, they second to largest one fit. All seems to be well, as there is no longer any rocking and it feels solidly connected to the floor.

Thanks to everyone for their help. The repair flange really can get you 1/2 inch with no offset and even more with a minor offset away from the wall.
 
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