Reg Bath project

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & ' started by reglilly, May 30, 2009.

  1. reglilly

    reglilly New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Saratoga Springs, NY
    Hi folks,

    I'm installing a shower and a jet tub, and have some plumbing questions -- I'm a fairly green plumber (done one shower so far).

    First, I have a gabled wall, and I want to install the shower head on the red spot in the picture below. Can I just run a copper pipe up and connect it to the supply line, or does it need some sort of support for that run? Anything else I should watch out for?

    Second, the other picture is of my shower drain. In my last shower project, Lonnie (who I hear hangs out in these parts) saved me from screwing up three times. Is this a real p-trap? And as I have to move it about 6" from the hole to center it, it looks like I'm going to run into some other pipe (don't know what it's for). Any suggestions about how to deal with this?

    Third, the last picture is of the tub drain. The drain needs to be relocated near the opposite wall, and I can cut a hole to access it. But how do I tell which way the drain is running. I wouldn't want to put my trap on the wrong piece of pipe!

    Thanks,
    Reg

    Attached Files:

  2. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,258
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    plumbing

    1. If it is for a shower arm it DOES need support, but you cannot just run it from a water pipe, you need a shower control valve.
    2. It is a trap, and that is a water line, so if you are moving the trap you have to do it correctly, not just however it can be done.
    3. Unless that is already a drain line to a trap, you may NOT be able to cut into it for your bathtub. And if it is to a trap, then the flow is FROM the trap to the drain system.

    These three questions imply that you did not learn enough from that one shower installation to be the "plumber" to do this one. ESPECIALLY since we do not even know if that one was done correctly.
  3. reglilly

    reglilly New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Saratoga Springs, NY
    Thanks, hj, for your help.

    The last shower I did was three years ago. The folks at John Bridge vetted pictures during the course of the installation, and it has been working perfectly ever since. I must confess some pride that a master plumber said my soldering was 'very clean.'

    I think my questions were a bit misleading: I know, of course, that a diverter will have to be installed for the shower. My question was about support from there up to the nub for the shower head, which you've kindly answered. I suspected support for the shower head nub would be necessary, but I was hoping not to have to cut the sheet rock to put a 2x4 backer in there.

    I'm aware that the p-trap must be done correctly, and not just any old way, which is why I ask about it. I know the copper line is water!! I realize the pipe I was thinking about doesn’t show in the picture. It is a vent pipe I’ve discovered. Am I correct in thinking I can put in whatever elbows in it I need to make room for the trap?

    I’ve figured out that there was no trap put in for the tub. There are plenty of vent lines, though. The only really accessible drain line is for the shower, which runs parallel to where the tub line will run. Can’t I just tap into the shower drain line? And do I need a separate vent line for it?

    Thanks again for you help.

    Reg
  4. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,810
    Location:
    New England
    Generally, each trap needs to be vented. Vents can be combined when run high enough above the flood rim of the serviced drains, so you can minimize the roof penetrations. There is a limit on how much change of direction is allowed in a drain line. You must also maintain the 1/4" per foot slope. The shower needs it's own drain (and it must be 2"), while a tub is normally 1-1/2". The vent connection to the drain and trap needs to be within prescribed distances that get longer as the diameter of the pipe gets bigger.
  5. reglilly

    reglilly New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Saratoga Springs, NY
    Thanks Jim,

    It seems the contractor installed a grid of vent lines under to floor to enable variable placement of the tub.

    What are the parameters (distances) for connecting vent line to tub drain (1-1/2 inch)? It so happens that the drain line and the vent line are going in horizontally opposite directions. So, I'll want to connect the vent line as close to the trap as possible to avoid a long double-back.

    What is the best way to connect tub drain to shower drain? I'd like to go straight back to the down drain wall and over rather than on the bias.

    Are vents unlike drains in allowing for more changes of direction?

    Reg

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 31, 2009
  6. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,258
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    tub

    quote:
    1. Am I correct in thinking I can put in whatever elbows in it I need to make room for the trap?

    2. I’ve figured out that there was no trap put in for the tub.

    3. There are plenty of vent lines, though.

    4. The only really accessible drain line is for the shower, which runs parallel to where the tub line will run. Can’t I just tap into the shower drain line?

    5.And do I need a separate vent line for it?


    1. NO, you cannot put elbows willy nilly in the drain.

    2. There MUST be a trap for the tub otherwise you would also be asking why the bathroom always smelled like sewer gas.

    3. There are NOT plenty of vent lines, at least none you can use. IF the plumber/contractor really did not spend money for a trap for the tub, WHAT makes you think he would have WASTED even more money installing future vents, which could not be used in any case.

    4. Whether you can or not depends on HOW you do it.

    5. Normally yes, but again it depends on HOW you do it.
  7. reglilly

    reglilly New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Saratoga Springs, NY
    Hi hj,

    1. My question about 'whatever elbows' was 'whatever elbows in the vent,' not the drain.

    2. There was no drain line for the tub put in. It's what I'm undertaking to do. Of course I know there has to be one, and a trap, too.

    3. There is, in fact a vent line. A priori reasoning might lead to you to conclude that if a plumber installs a vent line, he must have installed a drain line, too, and the absence of the latter proves the absence of the former; however, the fact is I have photo's to prove there is a dedicated vent line for the tub. One picture is of the series of vent lines -- the vertical vent closest to the camera is an elbow for the tub, the second vertical tee vent line is for the shower. The vent line goes to the far wall, with the horizontal line increasing in size with each junction. Picture two shows the shower drain and vent line, and the third the tub water and vent line with no drain line.

    4. Yes, that's what I'm asking -- HOW to do it.

    5. As I've discovered the tub has it's own vent line, this question is moot.

    HJ, have I offended you somehow? You seem to have assumed I'm an idiot from the get-go. At least as a working premise, assume I'm not. I really am very, very grateful for any help you or anyone else is willing to give me, but just telling me that I'm wrong and that it's important to do it correctly without saying how to do so doesn't help to actually do it correctly.

    Attached Files:

  8. reglilly

    reglilly New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Saratoga Springs, NY
    Well, I've tried to muddle along as best I could. Here's where I find myself:

    Here's pictures of my proposed tub-shower drain connection. The first picture shows the shower drain relocated and, up at 2:00, the tub drain. The second is my p-trap for the tub with the vent pipe visible. All pipes running to the right are vent lines (under the tub p-trap that one long existing vent line) and drains run left.

    Slope problem. The top of the shower drain line is 3" from the floor. With a 60" run from tub trap to shower drain line, I need to start 1-1/4" higher than that. That puts me at 1-3/4" from the floor and I have to go through 3 joists. I've gathered I shouldn't be drilling holes that close to the top of the joist. Can I do that and somehow reinforce the joists? I could (would rather not) refit the riser elbow and gain maybe a couple of inches (third picture).

    Also, I would like to displace the tub vent by a few inches. Is it in an 90 degree elbow or two 45 degree curves?

    How does this look (obviously pipes not cut to final lengths!)?

    Thanks,
    Reg

    Attached Files:

  9. reglilly

    reglilly New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Saratoga Springs, NY
    Trust a tradesman

    All prepared to bore through joists, I went to see if my retired plumber neighbor was around (he's not a lot) for a once over. Having unsuccessfully tried to remove the unneeded run of vent line I cut through the floor at the wall and found it joined to a 2" riser. He immediately identified the single vent for the tub as a ''wet vent" -- a vent that can be used as a drain. So, my new configuration is below.

    So, the original plumber wasn't stupid or negligent -- he did put in a vent, and a drain -- one structure. My tradesman neighbor suggested it was a wet vent just from my description before seeing it.

    Magic word of the day: "wet vent"

    Reg

    Attached Files:

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