Redo stack or not? Pictures depict my problem

[Terry]

Alectrician,
Thanks,
Yes, the kitchen should be run in 2" until the 2x1.5x1.5 santee.

On the washer, since your the vent is vertical, that should have been a santee.
If your washer bangs the pipes when it shuts off, you can add hammer arrestors.
Normally I would install then with the valve, or on the pipes, but you can also get the kind that threads on the back of the machine, where the hose attaches.

 

[sinkholed]

And the crap will skip right across to the other side until that toilet is flushed.

Having a toilet pulled on one side of that equation and flush one that has excrement in it........it will end up in the 90 pointing up at you.


Sinkholed, Your casual attitude on the structural and plumbing concept of your issue makes me wonder why you even bothered creating this thread. If it drains and the floor doesn't fall in, you're fine with it.

Well, so am I.

Didn't intend to portray a "casual attitude" regarding the structural & plumbing mess the original developer installed 33 years ago. My wife -- who wants both these adjoining bathrooms finished with 12" ceramic tile -- is the one with the casual attitude. I'm here precisely because I don't want to approach this in a casual attitude. Sorry if it seemed otherwise.

I've never had any problem with this plumbing, and so my focus on these bathrooms' rehabs was on the finished/visible portion of the rebuild. My main concern was rebuilding the sagging subfloor so it had proper structural support for 12" tile (rather than the original 1" mosaic tile sheets that were used). With that in mind I'd lined up a highly competent friend to assist me, and we were scheduled for the subfloor rebuild this weekend (6/23-24/07). The plan was -- and still hopefully is -- to rebuild the "right side" bathroom in time for a graduation party on August 4. Once the right side subfloor was done, I'd have 6 weeks left to finish that "main/guest" bathroom, during which my family would still have access to the smaller "left side" bathroom.

Well once I'd gutted down to studs, and removed the tub, that was when I became aware that there were NO JOISTS supporting the wall that separates the left & right bathrooms. Guess I should have realized that sooner, but once I did, my structurally-savvy friend come over to take a look.

That is where I am now. My friend says he can retrofit some support in the joistless space that houses my plumbing mess. That retrofit support would allow us to remove & rebuild the right side bathroom's subfloor, without compromising the left side bathroom's subfloor. And then after the August 4 party, we could tackle the rebuild of the left side bathoom.

Now here is why I have sought the advice of the plumbing forum here. Though my guy said he could retrofit some support around the existing plumbing, he recognizes that obviously it would be better if that plumbing was lower. That if they had only built the stack so that that "ideal double cross whatever-you-call-it" was BELOW the joist line, it would be much easier/more structurally sound to retrofit the necessary joist support in there.

So the question arose about "simply" (HA!) getting a plumber (or possibly me) to drop that whatever-you-call-it lower in the stack.

I do not have any other problem with the stack. Yes, the tub had been draining slower than it had, and yes I guess that would be improved if it was re-plumbed to drain more vertically than the original horizontal run they had installed. And I believe I understand the potential "crapshoot" (lol!) that installing the newer 1.6gal toilets might introduce.

My wife thinks I can just leave it all alone, let my friend retrofit whatever support he can fit around the existing plumbing, and just finish the thing off. I am concerned -- with good reason, I believe -- that unless I lower the "whatever-call-you-it" below the joists, so that full joist support can be intoduced, the new floor's 12" ceramic tile might be fatally flawed: 12" tile is prone to cracking unless properly supported.

So, what do I hope to find out from you guys here? Well for starters it seems it'll ballpark $1500-2000 to redo everything as is. I assume it'd be more or less the same to have it lowered, provided I didn't need to introduce new venting though the attic and out to the roof.

I am going to try & get estimates to confirm, but I would LOVE to be able to learn what the consensus opinion is here regarding WHAT & HOW the new plumbing should be laid out. I realize this is beyond me, and if I'm going to mess with what I've got I need a professional. I'd like to understand enough to know whether what is being suggested by a local plumber is up to snuff. If I can get specifics that pass muster with you guys here, I can use them to determine if this new plumber is going about it the right way.

Thanks to everyone who has commented on this thread; please keep it up. I think I've learned enough to be somewhat conversantly knowledgeable about what should or shouldn't be done, but I'm still in the "little knowledge is a dangerous thing" category. Keep it coming! And thanks to all!!

PS: In rereading, I guess I need to emphasize that I am NOT conversantly knowledgeable enough to understand half of what has been said here so far. I try, and I think I arrive at an understanding of most comments, if only through the context of the discussion. But if one or more of you is kind enough to review a step-by-step "problem/solution" suggestion, please keep in mind my "novice/virgin" knowledgebase. I had to google "WYE", so such terms as that and "SanTee" are alien to me. If that's what they're called, and you suggest that "this" or "that" piece go "here" or "there", I think I can follow along. Just try to assume I won't have the slightest idea of what you're talking about it, so try to be as "gentle" & specific with me as you can

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Geniescience]

.... get specifics that pass muster with you guys here, I can use them to determine if this new plumber is going about it the right way. ...
.... but I'm still in the "little knowledge is a dangerous thing" category.
.... "gentle" & specific

best explanation ever in the history of all mankind. You have to learn, you can grasp it as comes, you keep learning consequences and implications, you have to report back to the wife, you have a high knowledge helper available, you have to deal with professionals who will rush in and then say a few words based on their expert assessment, you need to understand the big picture and the little things too... All that and more in a real-life situation happening in real deadline time. The bestest funnest situation to open a thread for and let people help you get a better grip on what needs to be done, why it needs doing, and how it could be done.
________________________________________________________________

i,ll try to answer some of your questions that i saw previously unanswered.
-1. Can all the plumbing be reworked in one day? A Master Plumber could be in and out of your house in less than a day because he would be efficient every minute, he would have all the parts in his truck in case any situation required a new approach, he would know instantly (without having to post on a thread for confirmation) what to do, and his helper would be efficient too. Anyone else would be in for trouble or delays. My opinion. I believe he can be held to his promise to get the old toilet reconnected the same day, so your not-to-be-renovated bathroom remains operational.
-2. Can this all be left alone? NO. 100%. Tell your wife that this is not "hide-able". Either nothing changes, or else drains get built to drain right, properly, with the new changes. Although it has been working up till now, it is not a robust configuration, according to every person posting above.
-3. Drains through joists or not? No. 98% no. It seems to me that you don't need that basement space for a strong reason, or else that would have been expressed already. When rebuiding, build it so that it doesn't interfere with the joists.
-4. Options for tiling? Just FYI, the highest quality tiles don't cost megabucks, they resist cracking, and they look good. Check out "PEI 5". Also FYI, epoxy-based grout is very good at absorbing physical stresses like flexing, vibrations, movement. Check out "epoxy grout"- it also looks space age good. The old-fashioned grout is "portland cement based" -- this has been used for centuries; it can hairline crack if the floor allows movement. The cheapest low quality modern product is ready mix grout which can re-emulsify when damp.
-5. Any other ideas for joists? - Did you know that "steel box girder" is the way the most solid bridges are built? Did you know that you can buy a steel C channel that fits over (i.e. under) your wooden joist? Personally, I feel comfortable with steel: figuring out what and where to use it for bracing, sistering or sole support, then buying it, putting it into place, welding it all together if need be, screwing anything into it with self-tapping screws and any old handheld battery device. etc. The cost is low for the advantages it provides. I dislike creaking floors. I have even filled a C channel with concrete just to make my own little equivalent of a rebar reinforced concrete beam. Steel won't stretch, concrete won't compress, so the two together make a powerful team. Do this once and you'll have more solid support in the middle of your bathroom floor than if you put in wood joists only.

david

 

[sinkholed]

Can all the plumbing be reworked in one day? A Master Plumber could be in and out of your house in less than a day because he would be efficient every minute, he would have all the parts in his truck in case any situation required a new approach, he would know instantly (without having to post on a thread for confirmation) what to do, and his helper would be efficient too. Anyone else would be in for trouble or delays. My opinion. I believe he can be held to his promise to get the old toilet reconnected the same day, so your not-to-be-renovated bathroom remains operational.

With any luck I've got just such a guy. Comes highly recommended and seemed ultra-professionally reassuring. Plan is for a 2-day job with my friend's joist work being done between the plumber's day 1 & 2. As predicted, he will replumb the not-to-be-renovated bathroom and get it reconnected the same day. Will also replumb the to-be-renovated bathroom so that when he leaves my friend can come in and redo it's floor and add proper joist support. Plumber will then return to install tub and new cartidge -type single faucet. Roughly $1100 for day 1 and $900 for day 2. Seemed a little pricey for the tub install but he appreciated the difficulty of installing and attaching in the tight cantilevered crawl space outside of the foundation. I'm not going to complain

Don't ask me to describe exactly how this thing will be reconnected; I can't. I just know I'm getting the work permitted and inspected and that satisifies me. I will post back pictures of the completed work so all you pros can have at a critique of what they like or don't like about it. All I know is I'm over my head and the wife is quite happy to learn a master plummer will be doing the dangerous stuff

Once again, thanks to all who've helped so far, and I hope you won't be disappointed

 

[Lee Polowczuk]

FWIW...

someone once told me that re-plumbing and install costs roughly $1500 per fixture.

...or at least that what's you should budget for when doing renovation work.

 

[GrumpyPlumber]

FWIW...

someone once told me that re-plumbing and install costs roughly $1500 per fixture.

...or at least that what's you should budget for when doing renovation work.

Thats a good guidline for a remodel or new construction...but it's a worse case scenario price...I.E. a bathroom group might be less with all the fixtures tied into the same drain.

There are TONS of things to factor in....venting....existing plumbing (in this case...ouch)...water lines...accessability for running pipes...and (the one so often forgotten) fixture types...there's a difference in labor between installing a run-of-the-mill 2 handle delta KS faucet and a Grohe pullout or a Rohl side-mount.

 

[Geniescience]

...Either nothing changes, or else .... with the new changes. ...

i just read the thread's posts pretty much from beginning to end, so I'll add another piece of information that might help you, sinkholed.
Of the four pictures you posted, the first two pictures show one big "cross" which itself is technically OK. In the next two pictures, other pipes are shown and that is where everybody said parts need to be replaced.

Since you'll be reconfiguring a lot of pipes for a remodel, it's impossible to know whether the big cross can stay.

If one opens the pipe across from a toilet (in that cross), and then someone flushes that toilet, yes that toilet's water will come back up at you, because the pipe is open and so there is an open channel, and no resistance. One person remarked about toilet drain water running faster than ever before; i think that doesn't apply to a low-flow modern toilet and i don't think it is a concern. I could be wrong. All of this is to say that crosses are not necessarily junk, garbage, bad. They are still made and sold today. Just so you know. And, yes, in terms of space (volume and dimensions), they are efficient. Another option, to reduce space occupied by the drain plumbing down to a reasonable amount, is to align all the drains (and fittings) flat against a wall. With your joists going perpendicular to that wall, it is possible to run a drain pipe between joists and then have it turn to the stack when it is close to the wall, so the pipe doesn't take up much head room until it is close to the wall.

david