Recommendation for a Non-Universal Height Toto

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Geobrick

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I'm looking for recommendations for a Toto toilet that has a standard height bowl. It seems most of the newer models only come in 'ADA' or 'Universal Height' and I can't figure out how to search the Toto website to limit the search to non-Universal height models.

The ones that seem recommended most often lately are the models with a 'II' in the model name like drake II or Ultramax II. They have the double cyclone flush but only seem to be available as Universal height toilets.

I'm planning to buy three toilets. One 2-piece model and two 1-piece model. One of the 1-piece toilets can be a universal height model but the other two need to be the old standard bowl height (about 15"?).

For the 1-piece toilet with a universal bowl height, I was considering the Carolina II (seems to be a skirted Supreme II). What do you professionals think of that model?

ms864114e-1.jpg
 
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WJcandee

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Sure. That's a good choice. The Carlyle II, similar design with a taller tank, will have a little better flush than the Supreme II and Carolina II because of its higher tank. That toilet is a skirted Ultramax II. We have one at home. We love it. I would consider it. However, if you aren't wedded to the idea of the toilet being skirted, the Supreme II and the Ultramax II are probably better values, and less-complicated to install, because they just drop onto a standard 12" rough-in (assuming that that's what you have).

The Original Ultramax MS854114E will come in a regular height elongated bowl 1.28gpf. Beware the "Ultimate" as opposed to the Ultramax. The Ultimate has the same model number without any letter suffixes, and isn't as good a toilet, because it has a different flush valve. The relevant suffixes on the Ultramax are: E=1.28gpf and S=1.6gpf. To be the Ultramax and not the Ultimate, the toilet has to have one of those suffixes. E or S. Other relevant Toto suffixes are G=CEFIONTECT coating in the bowl, L=ADA Height (which you don't want), R=right hand trip lever (which you also don't want). So you might want the MS854114EG, for example, if you wanted CEFIONTECT in the bowl on a 1.28gpf toilet.

The original Drake is a great normal height two piece. CST744e for the 1.28gpf. It also now comes with the option of a different-looking tank on the same bowl, CST744EN. That new tank only comes in 1.28gpf (EN), whereas the old tank can still be had with the 1.6gpf innards if for some reason you want them, CST744S, OR the 1.28gpf innards, CST744E. The 1.6gpf is not really any better a flush, and basically just uses water you don't need to use.

Original Drake with old tank:
toto-cst744s-01.jpg;width=300;height=300;bgcolor=White


Original Drake with new tank:
toto-cst744en-01.jpg;width=300;height=300;bgcolor=White
 
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Geobrick

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Thanks for the information. I'm not sure I can still get a 1.6 gpf toilet in California at this time (let me know if I'm wrong about that). Based on what you said, I probably wouldn't need that anyway.
 

WJcandee

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Yeah, you shouldn't be able to, but there's always a way. But you are right, the extra water doesn't do much and isn't really necessary.

Now if you're REALLY interested in conservation, living as you do in Drought Land, Toto does have an Ultramax variant that only uses 1 gallon of water, and a Drake II that only uses one gallon. The flush valve on these things is not a flapper, but a unit of a different design which measures out the water more precisely than a flapper. That defeats one great benefit of Toto, which is that almost all their models use standard Korky parts that you can buy anywhere and that you will be able to buy anywhere 20 years from now. However, these units do do amazing things on a single gallon, and if your friends and neighbors are high-conservation-types, and you want to be the first on the bloc with a high-conservation toilet, these toilets work well. They get great ratings from the folks who buy them, but, of course, those who buy them understand that there's a tradeoff in stuff like bowl wash and water spot size when you are only using a gallon. Not huge tradeoffs, but tradeoffs nonetheless.

The models are CST454CUFG (there's a "U" instead of an "E" in the model number). Different look tank on the Drake II and different bowl design but not appearance. MS604114CUFG for the Ultramax II with 1.0 gpf.

Also, the dual flush Toto Aquia floor mount versions come in regular-height and universal height, and in one-piece and two-piece versions. Terry sells a lot of these, and has a very, very high satisfaction rate with customers who want them. He says they usually try one if they are conservation-conscious, and then call back and order more after using it for a while.

Flushing stuck-on, dried-on avocado, by a person who loves their Drake II 1.0gpf version:

By the way, to determine what a fair price is, check Terry's prices above as a guideline. Then, we suggest opening the yellow pages to Plumbing Supply, and calling at least 5 nearby plumbing supply places. Not Home Depot, but a real Plumbing Supply house. Almost all can get Toto from their supplier, even if they don't have a Toto display ad in the yellow pages or on their web site. Tell them you are ready to buy today if the price is fair, and ask for their best price on the following specific model numbers (and color). One place will be jerks, one place will be nice, but expensive, etc. But at least one will be nice people with good prices. Don't say, "Oh I can get it online for X dollars" because we think that's rude and we're big supporters of buying local. Sometimes the local guys' price will be way higher than online, and sometimes it will be even lower. Prices are all over the place, which is why we recommend calling at least 5 places with the exact model number and color you want. You can feel free to confirm the model numbers with us before you order..
 
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Geobrick

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Thanks. There's a few local plumbing supply places nearby that I've gone to over the last few years. One carries Toto and the other doesn't but can get them in a day or two. The prices they offer me track with what Terry has listed on this site.

The reason I asked about the Carolina II is that someone was selling one locally on Craig's list as a leftover from a remodel. I had to get it at the price being offered so now I only need two standard height toilets. It was perfect timing.

I came across a post on this forum where someone posted the realistic stop valve distances required for installing a skirted toto toilet but now I can't find it. The post said that it can be less than 8" and some only required 5.5". If you can point me to that post, I'd appreciate it. I've seen your suggestions about using the offset adapter with a ball valve stop that lets you use a skirted toilet without repositioning the pipe.
 
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WJcandee

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Thanks for the link. Now I know why I couldn't find it. It wasn't part of a forum thread.

Any time! There are several posts by Terry around the forums where he repeats that information, but I always have trouble finding them, so I just refer to that link.

Nice find with that Supreme II, by the way. If you got it for a great price, then it will be extra-satisfying to own.
 

Geobrick

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It was a Carolina II. A really good deal (got very lucky). It was being sold as unused in the box for $225 OBO. I asked what he meant by OBO and he said he'd take $170 cash. The box was a bit water damaged but everything in the box looked fine (haven't fully inspected everything yet but it looks like it's packed just like a new toilet).

For the other 2 toilets that I need to buy, I think I'm going to get one old style Ultramax and one Ultramax II. I know I said I needed two with the lower bowl height but I really want to try an Ultramax II.

So I'll probably get 1 MS854114EG and one Ultramax II MS604114CEFG. What is the 'C' in the suffix?
 

WJcandee

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It was a Carolina II. ... What is the 'C' in the suffix?

Yeah, I read that but had Supreme in my mind, forgetting you got the skirted version, which is of course more expensive. So that's a heck of a deal. Congrats! (You are lucky you didn't know that OBO meant "Or Best Offer", which actually a lot of people wouldn't know. You bargained with him without even intending to!)

As a suggestion, if you can, you might want to see how everyone likes that Universal-height toilet just in case they all do.

The "C" is for "double-cyclone", which is the rinse-system you would find in your Sup...Carolina II and the Ultramax II. As you probably know, instead of using rim holes, it shoots the bowl rinse water through two horizonal outlets, leading to a nice, bowl-cleaning swirl of water. The older G-Max and E-Max toilets use the rim holes. I think my original Drake rinses fine, but I think our Carlyle II does rinse a bit better (and the CEFIONTECT helps, too).

You have made some fine selections. All your toilets are going to come with the SS114 seat, which is excellent. They will take any standard seat, but we really like the SS114.
 

Geobrick

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As a suggestion, if you can, you might want to see how everyone likes that Universal-height toilet just in case they all do.

It would be very funny for me to end up with 3 Universal-height toilets when the thread is titled "Recommendation for a Non-Universal Height Toto". I'm OK with a universal-height toilet but my wife is 5.0' and didn't like it when I put an AS Champion 4 in there with the ADA height a few years ago.

All your toilets are going to come with the SS114 seat, which is excellent. They will take any standard seat, but we really like the SS114.
Yes. I agree. The AS Champion 4 I mentioned above was moved to my son's bathroom and I replaced it with an Ultramax which I assume came with the 114 seat. It was about 4 years ago. It's a slow close plastic seat. I like that seat and my wife likes the height.
 

Geobrick

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I'm getting ready to install the Carolina II but I need to move the stop valve (I know I could use the Dahl adapter stop but I've already opened the wall enough to see where the pipe is going). The inlet pipe is only 3-1/2" from the center and about 4" above the floor. It's coming down the inside of the wall with a 90-deg fitting and short pipe stub to bring it out of the wall.

The skirt is only 7" high in the back of the Carolina II. Above that, there a king of shelf where there's about 4 to 5" of empty space between the top of the skirt and the bottom of the tank. I'm considering raising the pipe to 8.5" off the floor so I only need to cut it, and put an elbow and short stub on it. Moving it left 4" more would need one cut, 2 elbows and 2 short pipes. Any harm in raising the stop valve to about 8" off the floor? I can even reuse the existing elbow and stub (I assume).

Update: My shortcut isn't a good idea. While the empty space is there, it won't leave much room to maneuver the toilet over the unifit pipe. I'm going to have to move it further over to the left. It won't take that much more effort to solder 5 joints instead of 2. Patching the wall is what I'm not so good at (but it's behind a toilet and no one will know it's there except me - and everyone reading this).

Update 2: Here are some images showing my 'excellent' soldering skills.

Stop_Relocate_1_IMG_2285.jpg Stop-Relocate-2_IMG_2292.jpg
 
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Gary Swart

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I've stayed out of this discussion until now because my comment would be aimed at the reason for specifically not wanting the Universal height. Certainly that is a personal choice and it seemed that you had researched the topic and had your reason(s). Now it appears that this is not a done deal, so here's my argument for the Universal height. In our youth, we could stand up after squatting on our haunches without a problem. But, as we age, our knees done work that well, and we need a bit of assistance to rise. I learned this lesson during my 33 years as a baseball umpire. Nine innings squatting down behind the catcher got to be a killer as I aged. Then I learned from the pros. Never get you butt lower than your knees. Amazing difference. Same principle with using a toilet. If I have to use a standard height toilet now at age 80, there had better be something to pull myself up with. The height difference does really look like that much, but it is enough to make a big difference. OK, now I've had my rant. Good luck in your quest.
 

Geobrick

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Gary, Thanks. I'm OK with a universal or even an ADA height toilet. People say they're too high for kids but kids adapt easily. Even a standard height toilet is too high for a small kid but we all managed to make the climb and 2" more wouldn't stop us. The reason I wanted the standard height is my wife (5.0') didn't love the ADA height toilet I put in the master bath a couple of years ago (so I moved it to the bathrooms used by the kids and put in a standard height Ultramax). For this current project, I was replacing 3 more toilets. One for a bathroom downstairs that my wife also uses. So at least one of the 3 had to be a standard height.

To your comment about age, my dad, 86, plans on visiting soon so putting an ADA or universal height toilet in the guest bathroom was the right choice. Stumbling onto the Carolina II listed on craig's list was just lucky timing. Of the 3 I replaced (flange issues with each detailed in the plumbing section), I ended up with two with the universal height (Ultramax II and the Carolina II) and one standard height (Ultramax 1.28gpf).
 
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