Radiant heating/woodstove

Discussion in 'HVAC Heating & Cooling' started by Supervisor, Feb 28, 2012.

  1. Hackney plumbing

    Hackney plumbing Homeowner

    Messages:
    1,174
    Location:
    Alabama
    Those are plumbing approvals. Not sure if they would consider it plumbing. Anyway its made by Thermo-Bilt Inc. not Hilkoil.

    How much water do you think 20' of 3/4" stainless sch 40 would hold?

    Are pressure cookers legal in Maine? The biggest pressure cooker will hold how much water? You know some people actually cook on woodstoves.

    You know I think you guys are onto somthing big here.......you dont think they photoshopped that approval and just slapped it on their website? Lordy I hope not.

    ADD>.....................................................................................................................................................V

    I was looking over the Maine website. Those people are flippin crazy with all their crazy rules and laws.

    Read this. Pay very close attention to the last paragraph. Read what they consider a "meal" and how you must eat it. LOL CRAZY
    .................................................................................................................................................................................................

    2.18: Resealing of Partially Consumed Bottles of Wine
    (1)
    No holder of a restaurant type license issued pursuant to the provisions of M.G.L. c. 138, § 12 and no holder of a hotel type license issued pursuant to the provisions of M.G.L. c. 138, § 12 shall permit a patron to retain and take off the licensed premises so much of a bottle of wine purchased by that patron with a meal and not totally consumed by that patron during the meal, except when the bottle of wine is re-sealed in compliance with 204 CMR 2.18.
    (2)
    Only one partially consumed bottle of wine per patron may be resealed and removed from the restaurant or hotel licensed premises pursuant to 204 CMR 2.18.
    (3)
    A receipt that prominently displays the date of the purchase of the meal must be furnished to the patron. The receipt must show both the purchase of the meal and the purchase of the bottle of wine.
    (4)
    Before permitting the carry out of a bottle of wine pursuant to 204 CMR 2.18, the holder of a restaurant type license or its employees or the holder of a hotel type license or its employees must:
    (a)
    securely reseal the bottle of wine;
    (b)
    place the resealed bottle in a one-time-use tamper-proof transparent bag that insures that the patron cannot gain access to the bottle while in transit after the bag is sealed;
    (c)
    securely seal the bag; and
    (d)
    affix the receipt to the sealed bag.
    (5)
    For the purpose of 204 CMR 2.18, the word “meal” shall mean the purchase by one person of a diversified selection of food which ordinarily is classified as an "entree" or "main course" which ordinarily cannot be consumed without the use of tableware and which cannot be conveniently consumed while standing or walking or the purchase by two or more persons of a diversified selection of food which is priced at more than $20.00 and ordinarily cannot be consumed without the use of tableware and which cannot be conveniently consumed while standing or walking.
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2012
  2. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,006
    Location:
    New England
    Doesn't really matter whether you like it or not...

    My sister moved to England for awhile. They require ALL gas burning appliances to be inspected and recertified multiple times per year. Now, how'd you like to pay someone to do that on a regular basis or they shut your gas off.

    She had some appliances delivered, but federal safety rules prohibit them from carrying anything up more than two steps. They are required to use a stair climbing machine for things exceeding a certain weight, and that requires at least a 4' landing so it can maneuver and remain stable. Their old house didn't have large enough landings, and they ended up carrying the things up themselves. Rules are the rules...if you don't like them, either move, or petition to have them changed.

    It's not necessarily whether something would work or not, but MA laws have made it illegal to use something in certain classes of products that they haven't already approved for use. Just like CA has certain rules on cars, MA does to, and the list goes on.
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2012
  3. Hackney plumbing

    Hackney plumbing Homeowner

    Messages:
    1,174
    Location:
    Alabama
    It doesn't matter if I like it or not? No kidding,thats kind of stating the obvious. I dont live there. Thank Jesus.

    I still say the Hikoil is allowed for use in Maine,they bought and paid for their approval of their bent stainless sch 40 pipe. Thats what that approval is for,not so a guy can buy it and mount it on his wall over his fireplace. Its not art....lol
  4. Dana

    Dana In the trades

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    Location:
    01609
    The "approval" may be very application specific- without the document in hand I wouldn't put much stock in the letters U and L in a circle on a 12 cent label. Modifying a wood stove in any significant way (like cutting holes in it) is also of dubious code compliance and insuarablity (even in Maine), even if the bent pipe you jam in there has valid safety agency labeling. Building something out of all UL-approved parts does not mean the result would pass a relevant UL safety test for the application.

    Pressure cookers are legal in MA, but the burner under it is a fraction of the output of a wood stove, and the water supply is a fixed amount, so it's not really the best analogy.

    No Thermo-Bilt products appear on the MA approvals list, so for at least this case it can be used as art over the fireplace, but not IN the fireplace (or anywhere else) if connected to potable or heating system plumbing.

    Jim- thanks for the link to the MA list! (It's handy for convincing some skeptics that drainwater heat recovery heat exchangers are in fact code-legal here.)
  5. Hackney plumbing

    Hackney plumbing Homeowner

    Messages:
    1,174
    Location:
    Alabama
    So now that you've spent what...3 days now trying to convince everyone how its not approved even tho it has the label.

    Try spending 3 minutes explaining to everyone how dangerous this loop is and why.

    After that try to find ONE that has actually blown up and post a link to the discussion.

    Goodluck with that.

    Have you ever considered the loop would be for experimental use? You know its very difficult to stop people from experimenting within their own home.......I dont care where ya live. I have no idea but they are sold and I'm buying one. I know how to install relief valves.
  6. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,006
    Location:
    New England
    If you really want one, then that time might be better spent convincing the agency that approves things for MA. Until then, your argument is pointless. Not saying I agree with MA and the way they do things (I purposly live over the border in NH), but they have their own way of doing things...don't like it, leave or vote! Water, when it expands into steam, gets 1600x larger. If it does that explosively, even a small amount can create lots of schrapnel. A simple coil, with no safety controls in an uncontrolled fire box is simply asking for trouble. A coil in and of itself is only one component, and while it may pass tests under some controlled circumstances, an open fire box is not one of them.
  7. Dana

    Dana In the trades

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    The biggest safety & sanity question marks are about the DIY hack to the wood stove more so than the heat exchanger itself, and in places that care more about stack emissions, whether the hack changes the validity of the EPA tests. I can believe that some hacks will change the stove sufficiently to affect emissions, most won't, but that's an opinion, whereas agency labeling requires testing.

    While they allege that it exceeds ASME & ASTM standards, it carries no ASME & ASTM labels, and it's fair to ask "Why not?".

    I'm not saying it isn't labeled at all, only that we have no idea the testing for what it's labeled for, and whether that's sufficient protection from liability for a DIY installation. There is an entire Bible of UL tests that are only relevant to particular applications- the label they use is cryptic about which UL standard it met. (I've designed many grid connected electronic items that bear a UL label, but some with a UL label for one application would fail miserably in a similar related application.) The UL labeling may begin and end with the pressure testing of the unit itself, independently of the real world potable and heating systems it might realistically be attached to might handler, or it could be more application-specific relative to pumped or convective loops for heating the water in a hot water tank, we simply can't tell. I DO know that some inspectors in my town would have a hissy-fit and condemn the heating system were it discovered, and require that it be removed and re-inspected before signing off on the system. YMMV. (This type of inspector is by no means a MA-only phenomenon- I've dealt with similar in WA and IL.)

    It's a lot simpler from a code & labeling point of view if the wood stove was manufactured tested & EPA/other certified with the integral coil rather than as a retrofit hack.
  8. quarry

    quarry New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Upstate NY
    use as many transfer plates as you can !!!. Trust me.
  9. Hackney plumbing

    Hackney plumbing Homeowner

    Messages:
    1,174
    Location:
    Alabama
    So your saying everything must be purchased as a complete unit,yeah ok uh huh. LOL

    You dont think when they gave the approval and the label you posted above it wasn't tested AS ITS INTENDED USE? Sure it was.

    Hey its easy enough to present the Hilkoil to an inspector,explain your plan and work together. Your alittle too wrapped up into proving somthing that you cant........everythings not online and you dont know everything......so your giving your opinion. Fine with me your entitled to your opinion,no one is saying your not.

    If you dont like the Hilkoils then dont use it,its ok with me. But dont try to state that they are not approved period and anyone who uses it is a hack.....thats kinda arrogant and ignorant at the same time.
  10. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,006
    Location:
    New England
    And when have you practiced your trade in MA? Have a license there? Know how they work? Without knowing what the test was for, what conditions it was used for, you're blowing smoke. MA is a different world...they do things their own way. The only way to know for sure is to ask the inspector in the locality.
  11. Hackney plumbing

    Hackney plumbing Homeowner

    Messages:
    1,174
    Location:
    Alabama
    I never told the guy to break any laws....now did I? Sure everyone agrees to get it approved by the local inspector. I stated that 20 posts ago.. Go back and find it,take the time to read what your complaining about at least.

    The approval sticker is good enough for me until a local inspector says I cant use it and then if I felt like it I may take it to court and make a big deal out of it. I usually get my way if I'm willing to pay enough money. Grown men get what they want,I know I do.

    Now to answer your sacastic questions for you.

    No I have never been to Maine and I have no plans to ever go. I like it warm to hot weather.

    No I do not have a license in Maine,and never will.

    I hope they work just like everyone else. Everyone needs a job at some point in their life,if not for the money then for the experience.

    No ones blowing smoke. I'm going to buy a Hilkoil and a stove and butcher it in my garage and use it to heat my house and my water in the winter.......when I want to. Whats a $1,000.00 for a fun project like that? Thats cheap fun.

    Whats the problem?
  12. Dana

    Dana In the trades

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    Location:
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    "Hey its easy enough to present the Hilkoil to an inspector,explain your plan and work together."

    Easier said than done in most of the states where I've worked. YMMV. In MA I can pretty much guarantee you that explaining any part of it to the inspector would get the project nixed completely, even if you had third party engineering test data to prove it was safe when installed precisely as you planned.

    "But dont try to state that they are not approved period and anyone who uses it is a hack.....thats kinda arrogant and ignorant at the same time. "

    Installing a Hilkoil is by definition a "hack", from an enginerd's definition of the term- an untested and not fully characterized modification to a system (and that isn't universally a bad thing.) I can understand how my use of that term may have been misconstrued to mean that "anyone who uses it is a hack", (an incompetent practitioner), which is a very different meaning that what I intended.
  13. Hackney plumbing

    Hackney plumbing Homeowner

    Messages:
    1,174
    Location:
    Alabama
    It has been tested and it has the label. You just cant read all about it online.....big deal.

    I've said it about 4 or 5 times now and I'm going to say it again. Simply talk to a local inspector and get it approved. It happens everyday all over the country with all types of mechanical installs.

    What if I've already called Maine and a inspector said he has one in his hunting camp stove???? What would you say then? Think about that before you answer.
  14. Dana

    Dana In the trades

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    Think? Why start now!?!

    I'd say: Good for him, and I hope it's all working out for him!
  15. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,006
    Location:
    New England
    As has been said several times, when it comes to plumbing issues, MA is a different world from most of the rest of the country. Same thing with cars and a lot of other things. MA follows CA in a lot of things, and they're pretty stringent on how they do things there as well. In working with people from MA for over 30-years, I've heard lots of first-hand issues people have had with approvals and inspectors.
  16. Hackney plumbing

    Hackney plumbing Homeowner

    Messages:
    1,174
    Location:
    Alabama
    So what??? That doesn't mean they will not allow a Hilkoil.

    I have an idea.....let everyone ask their local inspection department. For the 6th time. If they say no.......Its not like I'ma gonna care anyway. Thats too bad for them...at least they tried.
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2012
  17. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,006
    Location:
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    Think I already said to check...
  18. Dana

    Dana In the trades

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    Location:
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    In my direct MA experience I have yet to meet the inspector willing to put their neck out by explicitly allowing something that isn't enshrined in code or on the approved products list for the application. One inspector even made me swap out my circa 1923 toilet for an approved low-volume version before signing off on a drainwater heat recovery heat exchanger- a model that IS on the approved list, since the drain used by said toilet was touched. The fact that indoors wood boilers are explicitly disallowed for heating systems in MA doesn't make me hopeful on the HilKoil, but sure, if you REALLY want that thing, give it a shot. Personally I'd only play "ask the inspector" if I knew them and had a 100% positive experience with them. YMMV.

    I've read of someone in MI who was required to REMOVE the very same drainwater heat exchanger model installed in my house over the fact that a brazed copper manifold on the potable side was made from a material thicker than the range specified by the relevant ASTM B88 testing for potable piping and thus wasn't allowed to have the marking stripe, despite having met even tougher ASTM B75 standards not referenced in plumbing code. And this was even after evidence of the testing and the explanation for use of the (superior) thicker material was supplied by the manufacturer! They're out there, and they don't all live in MA.
  19. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    Only a masochist would pull a permit to add a coil to your stove. If you make it a OPEN system, the worst that can happen is you boil off your water. From the open, raised storage [convection circ] tank you pull your heat through a second larger coil.
  20. Supervisor

    Supervisor Construction Supervisor

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Lunenburg ma
    Dana, sorry I have been away for a few days trying to get the rest of the house framed, and just went through that drainwater heat recovery thread... great info, I only have one problem I dont have any vertical drain...or very small amounts, will this work in a horizontal application??

    Thanks Chris
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