questions about wet venting during a remodel

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by Master Brian, Nov 13, 2008.

  1. Master Brian

    Master Brian DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    368
    Location:
    Kansas
    I hope this is in the correct section, if not I appologize.

    Here it goes....I have a 1915 Bungalow and I am in the process of a complete remodel of the bath on the 1st floor. The old layout was horrible and there was no real vent for the tub or the sink. The toilet was tied directly into a 4" Cast Iron wye off the 2nd floors drain/vent. The only problem I had was the sink was sometimes slow to drain, but the pipes were badly corroded. The tub/shower drained fine.

    Questions:
    See diagram in below post #16 below. Is this ok?
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2008
  2. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

    Messages:
    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine
    Where to start. Not one single thing in that diagram will meet code. Other than the ejector pump not one single vent is proper. You really need to get a licensed plumber to come out and take care of this.
  3. Master Brian

    Master Brian DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    368
    Location:
    Kansas
    Not suprising, it has issues, but without gutting this house, the options are somewhat limited. This has been worked on several times over the years by professionals, from what I've been told and from looks, and you are still saying not one single thing will meet code except ejector pump, which I installed. I have been told the upstairs bath was done/remodeled in the late 80's and I found newspaper filling a hole in the plaster in the 1st floor bath from 1991, which leads me to believe that was when it was remodeled last.

    I actually did have a licensed plumber come out for the 1st floor bath and he didn't offer any solution for venting the toilet. He recommended the AAV for the sink and again mentioned nothing about the tub vent. I think he thought all were close enough to the stack that feeds the 2nd floor toilet and shower. I didn't/haven't gone with him, because I think for no more than what he brought to the table, he was a bit pricy, considering I had thought of all of that on my own and could easily do the work for about 1/8 of the price. The only thing he did suggest was that I had the sewage ejector pump inspected.

    Not to be argumentative about this, as I'm sure most would say call someone else. Long story short, that doesn't seem to work for me. People don't seem to want to work around here. I guess the economy isn't too bad afterall!!!:cool:

    In any case, the 2nd floor seems to work fine, so for now let's totally disregard any issues that has with itself. I may come back to that as I plan on doing a remodel up there in the future. I only listed that stuff in case it has a negative issue on the plumbing below.
  4. Master Brian

    Master Brian DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    368
    Location:
    Kansas
    Ok, I have included another diagram. This time of the wall where the sink and tub will be installed. I am hoping to break this down a bit.

    I did again include the 2nd floor fixtures in the diagram to show what drains where. I am hoping this is more clear. What problems are there with this?
    ANY??

    Again, the toilet and shower on the 2nd floor drain fine. I am guessing the 2nd floor toilet is vented ok, because it is most likely wye'd directly to the stack and the stack vents to the roof. The 2nd floor shower, I am pretty certain, does NOT contain a proper vent, but during a remodel in the future I will/can add one. My concern with these is that they don't over tax the line causing the traps of the 1st floor tub and sink to be sucked dry.

    I will try to post another diagram of my 2nd floor sinks and my 1st floor toilet proposal later. Maybe I can get some actual pictures.

    I am assuming my sewage ejector pump is fine the way I am planning on connecting it.

    Thanks again for any and all feedback.

    Attached Files:

  5. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,247
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    piping

    The second floor toilet is vented, and the shower would also be if it were not 10' away from the connection. The lower fixtures are not vented and an AAV would not work, because you will have as much, or more, problems with positive pressure as negative, and an AAV is useless for positive pressure. I have no idea why you would have a 4" cast iron "main vent" line with no plumbing connected to it. That is something we would only find in multistory commercial buildings, and even then it would have a purpose.
  6. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

    Messages:
    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine
    I don't know what to say here. Truth is most of it should be torn out and done over. There is no quick fix here and I suppose you might as well do whatever you think will work. But none of it will pass an inspection.
  7. Master Brian

    Master Brian DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    368
    Location:
    Kansas
    I understand where you guys are coming from and do appreciate the feedback. I took some pictures, I will see if I can put them together to make any sense, so that we can go from there.

    From my research, I do think I understand some of the issues....

    1st, I haven't really figured out the 4" cast iron vent that seems to connect to nothing. I'll crawl back up into the ceiling/attic that is next to the upstairs bath this weekend and take a look. Maybe, just maybe it is the drain for the upstairs toilet & shower. That might make more sense, I have only been in the attic space once and I didn't take long to look. I just assumed.:( If not are you saying this can come out? I have access to it through a 1st floor closet and like I said I want to replace all the cast iron in the main drain line. I would love to get rid of anything that isn't necessary and it would certainly keep me from having to ensure it is properly hung prior to removing the cast iron below it.

    2nd, if the upstairs bath drains into the 4" cast iron that the 2nd floor also uses, am I correct that this is incorrect because you can only have 3 fixtures on a wet vet line and they ALL must be on the SAME level? If this is correct, it explains issues I have with both the 4" cast that feeds the 1st floor tub/sink as well as the 2" line that drains the 2nd floors sinks. Which is why I am guessing it would be wrong to drain & vent the toilet into that line.

    3rd, if that is the case then I must/should try to find a seperate vent for the 1st floor tub and sink. I've already decided the 1st floor toilet needs a different vent. If in fact the 4" cast line I thought/think goes only to an outside vent, does in fact vent and drain the 2nd floor fixtures, then am I good to go connecting my tub and sink to the 4" cast line I initially wanted to hook them to? Also, should I be fine taking out the AAV and just using that drain and vent. The sink would empty above the tub.

    4th, My understanding is that per code, the 4" PVC line illustrated in pic #1(currently 2") that my 2nd floor sinks drain into, but wanted to convert to 4" and drain/wet vent my 1st floor toilet into, should be moved more inline with the main drain line. Currently it enters the 4" cast iron drain stack via a wye.

    5th, I back to the 1st floor toilet. Would this work....I have 2 vents coming from my basement/sewage ejector pump setup. The first is the isolated vent for the pump basin. The second is the vent that is venting my laundry sink, future bar and future bath. If I were to run a vent directly off the toilet, could I tie into the vent for the basement fixtures? Would I need to increase from 2" to 3" or bigger? I realize I would have to install this connection well above the toilet to keep any backup from going into my basement fixtures.

    I will try to draw a modified diagram. I know you guys think this this is a mess, it is, but I do want to do it as correctly as possible, which is why I came here.

    Thanks again...
  8. Master Brian

    Master Brian DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    368
    Location:
    Kansas
    If it drains would you mess with it in the future or leave alone?


    What problems do positive pressure cause? Lack of water in the trap? One thought was using the AAV, but instead of tieing into the 4" vertical cast iron run, that I would drop through the floor and tie in fresh to the horizontal 4" cast iron run that exits the house. Would the AAV work fine then?

    Who knows, they did some strange stuff 100 years ago at times....
  9. Master Brian

    Master Brian DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    368
    Location:
    Kansas
    What about this diagram? IF the 2nd floor uses the other 4" stack. I would then assume I should get rid of the AAV for the sink. Could I use it for the toilet perhaps and still drain the toilet into this stack? The only problem I face with that is the wall behind where the toilet is going is only 1 1/2" thick, so no room to tuck it in there, I'd have to find a way to go into adjoing cabinet or closet.

    Attached Files:

  10. Master Brian

    Master Brian DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    368
    Location:
    Kansas
    Here are the pictures I took. I tried to tie them together to make a somewhat panoramic view, hope it makes sense.

    If my previous post didn't make sense, I'll try again. Going off the theory that pipe B drains the 2nd floor fixtures, minus the sinks and that pipe C is only draining the 1st floor fixtures.

    My thought now is extend Pipe A with 4" PVC. to go about 4-6' into the 2nd part of the upper half of the picture. Then I can cleanly and seperately tie my sewage ejector pump, my 1st floor toilet and my 2nd floor sinks into Pipe A. Each item will tie into pipe A with the appropriate sized wye, individually and install a new cleanout at the end of this run. That way they don't interfere with the drainage of pipe C. I'll tie new plumbing for 1st floor sink into cast iron pipe that is just visible behind the toilet in the bottom right picture and let it drain into pipe C. Only about a 2' run, so I should be fine on the venting, correct???

    I am going to be placing the clawfoot tub along the wall with the 2 windows and the drain will be about where the toilet is currently sitting. The toilet will then be placed where the drain for the tub is. I just have to figure out it's venting.

    How does all of this sound? I'll be looking in the attic within the hour to see if I can make sense of what feeds pipe B & C.

    Attached Files:

  11. Master Brian

    Master Brian DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    368
    Location:
    Kansas
    Ok, I was originally incorrect about the 2nd floor fixtures draining into the 1st floors. I checked in the attic and sure enough Pipe B above drains the 2nd floor toilet and shower. Pipe C handles the 1st floor fixtures. Am I now better off?

    The new toilet placement is still in question as far as where/how to place the vent. Any suggestions.
  12. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

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    You are a lot better off!
  13. Master Brian

    Master Brian DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    368
    Location:
    Kansas
    Are there still major problems?
  14. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

    Messages:
    7,450
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Well can you redo your drawing to show how things are done now and what you plan on changing.
    A simple drawing is fine.
  15. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,247
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    drains

    According to your new description, yes, but then your first description was inaccurate also. The pedestal lav still needs a vent and according to your new data, it would be better to connect the vent properly than to use an AAV. The upstairs tub may have worked for umpteen years, but that does not mean it has been working properly.
  16. Master Brian

    Master Brian DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    368
    Location:
    Kansas
    Here is my proposal, much of it is current. The red is the drain side, the grey is the vent side. If there isn't a grey line coming out, there isn't a vent.

    2nd floor to remain totally unchanged, except for possibly tieing the sewage ejector pump and basement fixture(s) vent into the double lavatory vent right before it exits the structure.

    I know it probably isn't up to code to exit the sewage ejector vent into another vent, but will it cause any real issues if I do it right before it leaves my roof? I know I can cut a hole in the roof, but I really don't want to. It's on the front side of my house.... I can't forsee any issues, but again, I'm not the expert. The pump is very powerful, are they afraid it will cause a suction issue when it kicks on with the other vents? I will probably vent it out roof seperately.

    The 2nd floor shower is wrong, I know. It will be fixed when I remodel that bath in the next year or so. It works for now and won't be subject to any current possible inspections.

    I don't have a good way to tie the 1st floor sink into a vent, other than an AAV or letting it drain the 2-3' from the fixture and grabbing the vent from the 4" stack. I could use an AAV and instead of draining into the 4" stack, I can drain it direct into the 4" main line, if that is better.

    Same goes for the tub, but it is less than 2' from the 4" stack. Plumbing for it has to be all new, as it was in a different location and without a vent.

    I am not 100% sure on the toilet vent for the 1st floor. I showed it connecting to the 2nd floor lavatory vent in the illustration. Is this ok? I had thought about an AAV, but like having a good solid vent best and I think I can pick it up easily by running through a closet.

    I hope this is all explained well and I haven't lost anyone. Maybe I need to go back and edit my previous posts since they were incorrect.

    Attached Files:

  17. Master Brian

    Master Brian DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    368
    Location:
    Kansas
    No good way of connecting it "properly". The pipe to which I would have to tie in is cast and I can't get to it to ensure it is supported properly. I can only support it on the floor of the 1st floor and possibly in the ceiling between the 1st and 2nd floor. It is NOT accessible in the attic.

    My only other option is the AAV and dropping a new drain down to the main drain line in the basement. Again, the distance of this fixture to the 4" vent is less than 3' and it is the top fixture in the line. The tub below would therfore become wet vented.

    Besides those issues what else do you see?

    Thanks again.
  18. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

    Messages:
    7,450
    Location:
    Connecticut
    You probably can share the ejector pit vent with the basement fixtures.
    Check your local code

    Second floor shower and toilet needs work on the venting.

    The second floor double lave is going to use a double fixture fitting. Right?
  19. Master Brian

    Master Brian DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    368
    Location:
    Kansas
    I'll see if I can find the local code on the ejector pit, but I believe I am going to run the ejector pit vent through roof all by itself. I keep running across that and that pump has so much force/power, I don't want to run into a problem.

    I'll get to the 2nd floor when I remodel that bathroom, right now how does my 1st floor look?

    Thanks again.
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