Questions about Toto Eco Drake, Kohler Wellworth

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by ubersanger, Mar 29, 2014.

  1. ubersanger

    ubersanger New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Indiana
    Replacing an old builders grade Peerless 1.6 (more like 2+ gallon flush because I have never been able to find a flapper that works right for it after the OEM started leaking) and have narrowed it down to the Kohler Wellworth and the Eco Drake. From what I can tell they both seem to flush well with no clogs. I need to go round front and standard height for a kids bathroom. I have some questions on both of these models.

    I am leaning towards the Eco Drake, but their spec sheet does not list the dimensions for its footprint. I need to make sure that it is large enough to cover the space of the toilet it is replacing. Does anyone have this info? It is one of the big hangups as I don't want to take the risk. I don't have a local dealer of Toto products so I have to go online for it so a return would not be feasible.

    The Wellworth definitely covers the footprint but I am worried about how difficult they will be to plunge as the bowl shape is weird. I expect that it will clog at some point with it being for kids. Also, I worry about the non-standard parts. In theory they should last longer than a flapper, but eventually they will need to be replaced. Can someone speak to the plunging issue or the parts issue for it.

    I am wanting 1.28 gallon flush, part for environment and partly because I am now paying $12/1000 gallons for water and sewer.

    By the way, I noticed that the Eco Drake is now rated for 1000 map. I read threads from a few years ago that said they were only 600 for round front. Did Toto change something at some point or did they just have them retested with better results?
  2. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,308
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    I don't have the info on the footprint, but I will make a couple of other comments. First, you may be able to get a local plumbing shop to order the Toto for you. Online can save some $$, but they are often damaged in shipping, so if you go that way, unpack and inspect it carefully before accepting delivery. The e-seller will make it good, but there will be a time factor to consider. Second point. don't worry about plunging. It is extremely rare that it will ever be necessary, but there are plungers that will work. Third point. Mapp ratings are sort of like horsepower ratings for cars. Gotta have some, but unless you're running in the Daytona, probably don't need a 600 HP engine. Any Toto will have more than enough flushing power for you.
  3. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,820
    Location:
    New England
    The spec sheet drawings are to scale...you may be able to get a good idea by simply measuring and extrapolating, or maybe a call to Toto themselves.

    The exact footprint could be an issue if something like a vinyl floor was installed while the toilet was in place, and only cut up to it. When installing flooring, it's much better to pull the toilet first. If the existing flooring goes to the flange, you can usually clean the floor up enough so it doesn't present a problem.
  4. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,798
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    The MaP testing is now done with plastic. They used to test with paste.
    Granted, they still say they are testing with paste, but now they wrap it with plastic. In my book, that's plastic.

    Either toilet will work well, and certainly better than what you had.
    I give the Drake the edge for what I consider a better trayway design.
    You should be able to find parts for either one. TOTO has their standard 3" flapper that has been in use for over ten years. Kohler now uses a canister flush, which is an improvement over the first class five flapper. Either the canister or the flapper are easy to change when it's time for repairs.
    Without looking at a picture of the old Peerless, it's hard to say how much you need to cover. We find the the Drake covers most old footprints, but there are always some exceptions.

    Any thing over 500 grams is excellent. I don't worry about a number bigger than that. I worry more about bowl rinse, which the Map doesn't even test for.
    So find something 500 grams plus, and look at bowl rinse.
  5. ubersanger

    ubersanger New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Indiana
    Thanks everyone for the comments. I went ahead and got the Wellworth since it was cheaper and was able to get it locally and I knew for a fact that the footprint wouldn't be an issue. However, I am wondering if whether I need to go back and exchange the one I got. Here's a picture of the bottom of the bowl. Is it me or does the pipeway for the water look really poorly done. The end of it, where it looks all rough, you can actually see a pattern of cloth material (looks like the same material as fiberglass patch) in the china. Plus there is that big glop of material in the middle of the piping. When I go from the otherside, it seems to be covering up a hole that is at probably half inch deep in the pipe. You can't visually see it from the topside but I can reach down in there just enough with my hand to feel it. I imagine this would be a spot where stuff could accumulate. The whole thing just seems that it came out bad and the just tried to patch it. I am wondering if its just cosmetic or will it create problems. Is this enough of a problem to exchange it? Of course, once its installed, you won't see any of it.
    DSC00752-2.jpg
    DSC00753-2.jpg
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2014
  6. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,771
    Location:
    New York, NY
    It really isn't. The list price may be different, but the street price is basically the same; in fact, some places have the Toto Drake for less money. You just have to call around. And you CAN get a Toto Drake locally. As we do try to say on here, one way to do so is to pull out the Yellow Pages, look up "plumbing supply", and call around to a number of places (at least 5) with the exact model number you want [CST743E for the round 1.28 gpf] and the color you want, and ask for a quote on that model number and color if you were to come in and pay for one today. Most can get it from their wholesaler. Some will quote a stupid-expensive price, some will be rude, and at least one will be nice and have a good price (about $200-ish street price) and a decent delivery time.

    Nobody was going to tell you that the Wellworth sucked compared to the Toto, but you probably noticed our subtle nudge in that direction.

    I don't know that you really have a problem with that Wellworth, but I do know that Toto's quality control is unsurpassed in the business. Which is why they are popular with plumbers that want to make one trip, install it, and not have to come back...
  7. ubersanger

    ubersanger New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Indiana
    Wellworth runs street price of $150 around here so yes it is cheaper and I'd have to drive an hour one way to get a Toto which I wouldn't consider local. Not every place in the country is the same.
  8. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,308
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    Maybe you should have made it clear that you wanted cheap. There are lots of builder grade toilets for around $100 in discount houses.
  9. Reach4

    Reach4 Active Member

    Messages:
    1,923
    Location:
    IL
    The trapway that carries solids is through the big hole. The area you are pointing out is carrying water to the siphon jet -- the little hole that blows water toward the trapway. If nothing else bothers you, I don't think that fiber-reinforced patch is a real worry if the siphon jet orifice is smooth enough inside. People have posted a little underneath patching action on Totos here too. Still, the toilets the others are recommending will probably flush better.

    That toilet sure gives some latitude on setting the toilet left and right. If you keep it, pay attention when you drop it to position it correctly before smushing the wax ring.

    http://www.peerlesspottery.com/toilets.html is in Rockport, Indiana by the Ohio river. This is not a suggestion. I am not familiar with their products.
  10. ubersanger

    ubersanger New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Indiana
    Cost was just one factor. I was balancing performance, cost and ease of availability. I had done extensive checking on both toilets outside of this just forum and believe it or not there are some plumbers out there who prefer the Kohler vs the Toto, but pretty much all blasted AS for reliability. The new wellworth uses the same design as the well liked Highline, only in standard height and incorporates a very good flush system and bowl wash that is at least comparable to the Drake (Consumer reports actually rated the Wellworth higher than the Eco Drake slightly. I know that is not necessarily a worthy endorsement, but it still was evidence in favor of Kohler). That said I really thought long and hard about going with the Toto, but the part of driving an hour each way (yes I did do my due diligence beforehand) to get one or to risk going online was enough to make me go with the Kohler and the cost difference just made it easier to justify.

    It's clear that Kohler still has a bit of quality control to do to matchup with Toto and this particular Kohler was made in the US so you can't just blame it on workers in Mexico. However, I went ahead and e-mailed the President of Kohler's Kitchen and Bath division with my pictures. Low and behold, I got a personal response from him and he said they would investigate it and offered to ship me a replacement (I am going to go the exchange route first). That's service in my mind and a good response. With that I am willing to stick with the Kohler and give them the benefit of the doubt here.

    Reach4 - Yes the problem is with the siphon jet. I didn't know the terminology. The orifice is not smooth because that large round glob of patch in the middle of the pipe is covering up a nice size hole, which while probably water tight, is anything but smooth.
  11. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,820
    Location:
    New England
    FWIW - It's not unusual for there to be holes that need to be patched in a complex piece of porcelain...they need a port for heat/vapors, etc. to escape during the initial drying and then firing process. Now, how well they are patched, is a different story altogether.
Similar Threads: Questions Toto
Forum Title Date
Toilet Forum discussions Toto Bidet Questions Jan 11, 2014
Toilet Forum discussions A couple Toto questions Jan 3, 2014
Toilet Forum discussions 2 Questions Re: Jamie's Toto toilet install Jun 7, 2013
Toilet Forum discussions Toto Drake questions Apr 15, 2013
Toilet Forum discussions Toto model decisions and water supply line questions Feb 5, 2013

Share This Page