Questionable Installation Issues with new water heater

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Whiteland

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Hello,
Recently my water heater quit working. After several attempts, I finally have a new one installed in the attic. It's not working yet because the plumbers didn't know how to connect the 3 phase wiring to my single phase residential service. While I wait on the electrician to get here, I thought I would ask you all some questions about the installation.

It is a 40 gallon AO Smith Conservationist model PXHT-40 Series 200.

What I noticed first is that the plumbers straightened the existing hard copper lines. The only way to explain it is to show you.

previous GE water heater copper lines curved
old water heater lines curved.JPG


new AOS water heater copper lines straightened
new water heater lines straightened.JPG


The old GE water heater was 47 inches tall. The new AOS is 60 inches tall. The gate valve was leaking so they put a new ball valve on the cold water supply line. Why lean it like that? Why not just take the original set up, straighten them up a little and add more hard copper line going to the left to the water heater? Should this be re-done?

The "factory-supplied" T&P valve was not in the box. The plumber had one on his truck and installed it. I found the package after they left and this valve has a 2 inch probe/thermometer. This model water heater has 3 inches of insulation. Should I leave it or have it replaced with the T&P valve from AO Smith that has a 3 inch probe/thermometer?

That brings us to the Brasscraft 18 inch copper flex lines with dielectric sleeve. You can see in the above photo, the flex lines on the AOS are touching the water heater. It looks to me like the new ones are bent too severely and could restrict the water flow. Will the sleeve crack or break at this bend over time?

previous GE flex
old GE flex.JPG


new AOS flex
new AOS flex.JPG



A couple of questions about the drain pan. Is a 24 inch pan big enough for a 20 inch water heater? Because of the attic location, I've always been worried about the water heater rusting out from the bottom. I had them place it on an 18 inch round, 2 inch high concrete pad. I've also heard about putting 2 inch diameter metal washers under the water heater to give it some air flow. What do you think? I know the T&P drain tube is too long. Luckily, that is an easy fix.

drain tube and pan
drain tube and pan.JPG



Would it be better to leave the (factory installed) steel nipples on the steel tank since the plumber used the right flex connector? If I change to the 6" brass nipples, will I need to replace the copper flex connectors?

In general, does an expansion tank help the water heater live longer? What are the downsides, besides cost? I'm waiting on the water pressure gauge to arrive, but I probably do not have a pressure problem.

In the past I have gotten excellent information off this forum that has educated me and helped me when dealing with contractors, which is why I'm asking for your help. I'd appreciate any information you all care to share.
 

Reach4

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The first thing I think you would want to address is what happens if the T+P valve starts emitting water? If it is more than a dribble, the pan is not going to be able to hold it. I think you need to run that to a place where it will not hurt. Using CPVC for that T+P exit is technically not allowed, and even if it were, you would be required to use a larger size. Also, drain the pan somewhere better than that bucket. But however you drain the drain pan, I cannot see it keep up with a T+P valve that opens. Think of gushing hot water.

Regarding the pressure tank, that is needed if you have a pressure regulator or if you have a water meter that has a checkvalve.

I can't help with the other questions that you asked.
 
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I am not a professional (with respect to plumbing) so keep that in mind.

Like you I don't like the looks of what they did to make the new taller tank connect. I think they went cheap on this by stretching the flex lines and straightening the tubing runs. I'm somewhat concerned by how well those somewhat pinched flex lines will respond over time. I don't know that it is enough to restrict flow (say to multiple users or the higher flow of a tub) but the higher stress points will be thinner and more likely to rupture with enough cycles. Stress risers tend to suffer more from corrosion effects as well as fatigue.

I'm surprised they went back with anything other than copper on the T&P valve discharge, even though the old line wasn't copper.

While you aren't in an earthquake zone, it might be prudent to consider some sort of strap of that tank to a nearby rafter cross member.

Reach4 brings up a good point about the drain not being able to keep up with the T&P if it opens. Might be worth checking guidelines on that. Realistically, the T&P is more likely to dribble from some slight overpressure than be running full open from a failed thermostat running heat full on all the time.

Expansion tanks are a good idea. If the system lacks one is closed and doesn't leak, and there is any sort of backflow prevention to the city mains, then the system pressure will rise after a shower/etc. until some sort of pressure relief occurs. In my old home I had a toilet (or toilets) that must have leaked at the fill valves at around 120 psig (because that was the max I saw on gauge with max press needle.) I didn't know that was happening until I replaced the toilets. As soon as I replaced the final toilet I started getting a dribble from the T&P valve. Putting a pressure gauge on revealed that the T&P was working exactly as designed, relieving at 150 psig. So I put in an expansion tank, pre-charged it to normal system pressure. After that I had no more pressure spikes and no more leaking from the T&P. Plan to reset the pre-charge every year or two. They can lose some air (and eventually they will fail.)

With an expansion tank your system might never see more than 70-80 psig. Without it the system might hit 150 psig briefly every day. This is more likely to produce leaks somewhere, even if they are just slow drips. And if the T&P is doing the relieving daily, it might eventually get stuck open dribbling constantly. I doubt you will see enough cycles to 150 that fatigue failure will occur, but over 10-20 years it is a possibility. That is not a realistic concern if the pressure cycles are much smaller because of an expansion tank.
 

Cacher_Chick

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There is no doubt that they could have done a better job then that. They might simply not be very good at their job, or be more concerned about getting on to the next one. Most homes are not set up for 3-phase, so if what you say is true, it makes no sense to me to install that heater at all.
 

Whiteland

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The first thing I think you would want to address is what happens if the T+P valve starts emitting water? If it is more than a dribble, the pan is not going to be able to hold it. I think you need to run that to a place where it will not hurt. Using CPVC for that T+P exit is technically not allowed, and even if it were, you would be required to use a larger size. Also, drain the pan somewhere better than that bucket. But however you drain the drain pan, I cannot see it keep up with a T+P valve that opens. Think of gushing hot water.

Regarding the pressure tank, that is needed if you have a pressure regulator or if you have a water meter that has a checkvalve.

I can't help with the other questions that you asked.


The drain pan has a hole on the back side (bottom of 2nd picture) that has a pvc pipe leading to a pipe that goes down to the bathrooms, so I figure that takes it to the sewer.
Since the T+P tube has to be fixed anyway, now I can make sure it is the right material and size. I appreciate your input.
 

hj

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The tank is NOT "3 phase", (it would have been much more expensive than a regular heater if it were, and usually a special order item), but if it were, you would have to rewire it. A fairly simple task to convert it to single phase, if you know what you are doing. The factory "galvanized nipples" are "di-electric" so brass would not be necessary. Regardless of the drain pan size, it will NOT prevent flooding from a discharging T&P valve OR a fast leak from the water heater. Washers under it would have absolutely NO benefit. I see a ball valve in the second picture but a gate valve in the third one. WHich do you have? They used an "extended shank" T&P valve so it is the correct one for the heater. If you do NOT need an expansion tank, there is no benefit to installing one, and it does NOT make the heater last longer in any case. There is no functional problem with the flexible connectors.
 
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Jadnashua

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While it doesn't seem to get much comment from professional plumbers, being overhead, I'd seriously consider something like a WAGS valve...it will shut off the WH and the incoming water if there is a significant leak. www.wagsvalve.com
 

Onokai

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Leave the factory nipples on-The small pan will not keep up with an serious leak so that should be addressed .Looks like it could drain out the gable end of house to the outside? The flex lines are made to flex so leave them be. I would strap that heater in so an earthquake does not take it down thru ceiling .If your house does not have 3 phase as most do not .I cannot believe you have a 3 phase heater really?? Let the electrician figure that one out.
I am not going to tackle the pressure tank question
Looks like the new heater has a ball valve which is what you want not a gate valve as they do not last as long trouble free.
Next time hire better plumbers .
 

hj

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I cannot remember when I have heard of an earthquake in Mississippi. A more relevant question would be "Why couldn't the old one be made to work"? An electric heater is a very simple device and should have only taken ONE "attempt", not several. An electric heater is usually only "replaced" when it starts to leak.
 

Whiteland

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I definately won't use these people again. It was Skeen Plumbing and Gas in Ridgeland, Mississippi. They definately took shortcuts to save time and lower their costs. I've worked with 4 plumbers in the last 3 years, here and at rental property, and wouldn't call any of them back.

Here's an update on the 3 phase electrical wiring. Hee, hee. This just takes the cake. I didn't see it because the water heater is 60" tall and I'm not. I had the wire nuts in the garage.
electrical wiring
DSCN7143.JPG
 

Whiteland

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Regardless of the drain pan size, it will NOT prevent flooding from a discharging T&P valve OR a fast leak from the water heater. Washers under it would have absolutely NO benefit.

I don't know if I could find a larger drain pan or if it would fit. The washer idea was to have some air flow under the tank so it could dry out in case some moisture got underneath.

I see a ball valve in the second picture but a gate valve in the third one. WHich do you have?

I have the ball valve. The old gate valve on cold water supply was leaking and replaced.
 

Cacher_Chick

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We do not install water heaters in attics in the north because they would freeze. It also seems like a bad idea because of the flood potential, particularly now that the average tank is only good for about 8 years. I would definitely make sure that the pan connection is watertight and piped to someplace where I would immediately know if there were a leak.
 

Whiteland

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I cannot remember when I have heard of an earthquake in Mississippi. A more relevant question would be "Why couldn't the old one be made to work"? An electric heater is a very simple device and should have only taken ONE "attempt", not several. An electric heater is usually only "replaced" when it starts to leak.

In hindsight, I probably could have fixed the old one and gotten a few more years out of it. But I would be taking a chance on it completely rusting out at the bottom. I go up there once a month and drain a couple gallons of water for maintenance. The heat pump quit last month. That's the brand new Trane unit in the photos. During the install I noticed the water heater was standing in water. Got a sponge and soaked up the water, in the bottom of the pan, that was lower than the pipe that exits the drain pan. A few days later it was back. I've been waiting on the heat pump to be replaced before adding insulation to the attic. I decided to go ahead and replace the water heater rather than repair. Now I'm ready for new insulation and won't have people up there stepping on it/compressing it. Maybe. I hope. That's why I want to get this water heater installation "corrected", if necessary.
 

Master Plumber Mark

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I dont think You know what you are talking about..... as HJ pointed out already.....

if you took out a GE and replaced it with this unit
the odds are the electrical is comparable and should not be a problem...
if the wire is too short now all they had to do is install a junction box
and extend the 220volt wire with an extension...

its no big deal I dont know
why the plumbers would not just extend this as necessary unless you were not
willing to PAY them to do this for you.....

the copper flex connectors will work just fine and dandy....leave them alone....

it appears that you could use a better platform under the water heater..
.like its about to fall over .... it could use a larger peice of plywood
under it.... A larger pan is always better,, I would have installed in
in a washing machine pan for more space that might be beneficial.. but
you got to install some plywood for better support....

Do you even have a dedicated drain for the water heater...It appears that a drain
pipe goes off to the furnace... If I had to deal with this mess I would run the
t+p over to and cut into the drain with a tee and make it a direct connection instead of into the pan..??



Why are you blameing the plumbers for your attic space?? this is all they had to
work with and I am willing to bet you refused to pay them for any extra work that was necessary
That is all they had to work with
and I would be willing to bet you refused to pay for any upgrades...


I think we are only getting part of the story here....
 
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Whiteland

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I dont think You know what you are talking about..... as HJ pointed out already.....

if you took out a GE and replaced it with this unit
the odds are the electrical is comparable and should not be a problem...
if the wire is too short now all they had to do is install a junction box
and extend the 220volt wire with an extension...

Don't ask me why but the manufacturer ships this water heater set up to connect to 3 phase OR single phase. See the picture I uploaded in post#11.






it appears that you could use a better platform under the water heater..
.like its about to fall over .... it could use a larger peice of plywood
under it.... A larger pan is always better,, I would have installed in
in a washing machine pan for more space that might be beneficial.. but
you got to install some plywood for better support....

These are both great ideas. I can get both plywood and the washing machine pan at the big orange store. Of course, that is going to raise the height up and might crimp those flex lines more. I'll let a (different) plumber handle it.



its no big deal I dont know
why the plumbers would not just extend this as necessary unless you were not
willing to PAY them to do this for you.....

Why are you blameing the plumbers for your attic space?? this is all they had to
work with and I am willing to bet you refused to pay them for any extra work that was necessary
That is all they had to work with and I would be willing to bet you refused to pay for any upgrades...


I think we are only getting part of the story here....

I had to special order this water heater. None of the distributors had it in stock. Next units available locally were coming in April after the new federal regulations take effect. The "several attempts" I referred to in my original post had to do with the first one arriving damaged. This is the second one. It is still not functioning because the plumbers wouldn't wire it to the single phase electrical supply. I did not mean to imply anywhere that they were at fault for my attic space. They did not ask or tell me what was going to happen with the copper supply lines. They were in such a hurry to leave, I didn't even see it until after they got paid and left.

I was quoted $600 to install by other plumbers, Skeen wanted $700. They were recommended by some heavy equipment people. These prices do not include the actual water heater because I paid for it when I ordered it. After telling Skeen it was in the attic, like 90% of water heaters around here, they added $50. Then I asked them to install a 2nd anode, combo under the hot water nipple, and that was another $50. The replacement T+P valve added another $35, then sales tax was another $60. The check was for over $900. I feel the questions I asked before the install; the services I did request; and the fact that I special ordered a high efficiency water heater with a 10-year tank and parts warranty; should have alerted them that I was willing to pay for quality. They had the model number a week before they arrived.

If I had gotten a top-notch Grade A job, maybe I wouldn't be here asking questions. From the responses in this thread, it's obvious that they cheaped out and over charged.

I am always willing to pay a proper price for a quality job, especially when it comes to long term investments.

All of you here are what makes it possible for a layperson to know what to expect. And what to do when it doesn't go right.
I appreciate it a lot.
 

Whiteland

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I am uploading a photo of the actual drain for those that mentioned this issue. The water heater pan is on the right. At the top, the
drain for the heat pump air handler pan exits the building. The pipe and elbow coming in from the left of the photo is also from the heat pump air handler.

DSCN7145.JPG
 

Master Plumber Mark

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I picked up an extra special Heavy duty Rheem 66 gallon electric water heater one time for a song..
It was a close out deal from my local supply house at tax time for under 100 bucks.

I did not know what kind of grief I was getting into.... We installed the unit for a friend in a new home
and the Electrician was seriously pissed off at me because it was on a 3 phase too so he had a
special kind of mess on his hands..... I think he finally just re-wired the unit and made it a normal
water heater....


In all honesty the job is not all that bad...... the flex lines are fine ok...leave it alone...

the pan could have been a little bigger,,, YES..
and the t+p drain should be tied in down the line
instead of just thrown into the pan... MOVE to better location cpvc is OK

I myself personally would have not hooked up the hot water to the unit if it were a special order
commercial unit from out of left field ----and had you get an electrician to upgrade the wiring
THAT BILL should be on you .... ....

The special order unit is not really their problem...
if this is considered a light commercial unit it is probably
something that should have been looked deeply into before ordering ...by the both of you
BOTH of you made this slip up.....

and you should have had the proper electrical wire ran and ready for them before
they ever got on the job.... you had to know about the electrical before the first water heater
ever arrived and that should have thrown up a BIG red flag...

FYI On s side note.... Servicing that light commercial heater and
dealing with those elements down the road might be fun too when they go out..
I would suggest that you mention it to the poor dumbass plumber that is going to have to work on
that unit some day.... BEFORE he spends the time to come out to your home and
gets up in the attic and figures it out for himself.....

.
 

Master Plumber Mark

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I am uploading a photo of the actual drain for those that mentioned this issue. The water heater pan is on the right. At the top, the
drain for the heat pump air handler pan exits the building. The pipe and elbow coming in from the left of the photo is also from the heat pump air handler.

View attachment 28271


The CPVC would probably squeese into that 2 inch pipe... I do that all the time. on my installs ---no big deal at all
... Or you can just cut a Tee
into the mess close to the end before it goes over Niagra Falls.... It will work

I would just do that so I would sleep better knowing it would go into a large pipe f it ever let loose on you

also you can buy a water alarm called a ZIRCON on E-bay for nothing
and throw it into the water heater pan...

also make sure that the seal going to the aluminum pan is water tight.
I usually just get some silicone and spread it around the nut on the inside
and the outside of the pan with my finger just to seal it up 150%.


stay thirsty my friend...
 
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