Puzzling Toilet Issue

[girldog]

Hello anyone who may be able to help:
We have a 1985 Eljer Triangle Toilet. The fill valve finally gave it up, after 30 years, and we replaced the fill valve with a Coast Mark IV 1B1 Master fill valve (part # 495-0214-00) that is supposed to be the correct ballcock fill valve for this toilet. After adjusting the fill valve cut off to where it should be (measuring from the tank fill line and the overflow tube) we have this issue: after flushing the toilet the tank fills to the appropriate level and shuts off; in roughly 15 seconds, the fill valve opens again for 2 seconds then shuts off, then 5 sconds later the fill valve opens again and shuts off. This happens a total of 4 times after the initial flush and fill. The level of the tank water remains the same after the 4th fill valve turn on until the next time we flush the toilet. Then it repeats the same scenario again. We thought it was a bad fill valve so we put another new fill valve in (same model fill valve) and it does the same thing. The water level in the bowl doesn't seem to fluctuate at all during these additional fill valve openings. Could turbulence in the tank be affecting the float ball? Is this a leaking flapper issue? Is this due to too much water pressure? We don't want to go through the hassle of replacing the whole toilet because we're not sure the soil line is the appropriate distance from the walls to accommodate a standard toilet & we have a ceramic tile floor in the bathroom. We haven't put the lid on our toilet tank for the past 9 months and this issue and toilet are really grating on our last nerve. Any insight on how to fix this would be greatly appreciated.

Trying to be a self-sufficient girldog.

girldog, May 2, 2015EditReport
Reply

 

[Smooky]

I would put in a fluidmaster and many others like a Korky fill valve.
http://www.fluidmaster.com/our-products/toilet-fill-valves-toilet-parts.html
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Korky-QuietFill-Toilet-Fill-Valve-528CM/100023407

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

A pressure gauge with a garden hose thread is cheap. I don't know how pressure would do what you say, but it is easy to check.

How far below the overflow is the water level?

Regarding the flapper, hmmm... I wonder why it stops cycling, and why is it so predictable. Interesting mystery. I was thinking along the line that maybe the float is stiff and it takes a while to conform to the seat each time. Weird idea.

So may be the next time you flush, you apply a little downward pressure to the ball so the water enters just a little longer. Does the water not cut on this time? It's not that I have a good idea, but this test result may lead somebody to an idea.

There are two questions above.

 

[WJcandee]

Don't change anything.

Just chill.

The key to your whole presentation is when you say that after the fourth fill, the thing stays full and off until the next flush.

Yeah, it's the water in the tank moving a little bit, but not enough to really be visible. This lets the ball drop enough to open the valve a smidge. Water comes in the tank for 2 secs and pushes the ball up. A little extra wave, and a little more water. A final little wave, and a smidge more water, after which the ball is so fully-supported that the valve won't open again. The Coast design is sensitive to the position of the ball, and a slight reduction in height of the ball opens the valve just a little bit.

More modern valves like the Korky are designed not to open partially in the face of an infinitesimal reduction in water as would come from a little wave in the water.

Good job handling these things yourself!!

 

[TheUniversalDave1]

The Coast Mark IV is an incredibly high quality fill valve. Good choice. Try turning the shutoff valve off slightly. That will allow the piston inside the valve to seal with less resistance, which will make a much smaller "wave" in the tank. The tank will fill more slowly. I have never had any problems with the Coast line, and all their parts are made in USA to boot. I installed the Coast Closeout kit in my 1959 "Standard" Compact, and it works beautifully.

 

[WJcandee]

I would recommend against backing off the water at the wall. You risk inducing cavitation and noise. Just leave it fully open. It's really no big deal if the valve is turning on and off in a predictable pattern for a couple of seconds after the toilet fills.

I don't understand why you haven't put the cover back on and why a little running is a big deal for you.

If it's really incredibly annoying, go get a Korky 528MP (MaxPerformance) and install that. It won't have that issue, by design. But the Coast is a perfectly fine fill valve operating as it is supposed to operate.

PS The toilet in my City apartment has a similar ballcock and does exactly what your toilet does and I don't even notice it.

 

[Jadnashua]

If things don't make any noises, you could try partially closing the supply valve...you'll know on the first flush/refill if it solves the problem or creates new ones...it's easily reversed! The higher your supply water pressure, the bigger the possibility of 'waves' in the tank during filling could cause this, so it may help your entire plumbing system to lower it. Plumbing code requires it to be a max of 80psi, and the valve should operate fine up to that point...higher, maybe not. Also, make sure that the hose that fills the bowl via the overflow is actually running down it, and not spraying on your float.

 

[TheUniversalDave1]

Like I said.

 

[TheUniversalDave1]

Here is my 1959 "Standard" Compact tank with all new Coast parts. It works flawlessly.

 

[Terry]

Very nice Dave.
Reminds me of the same toilets that we used to have at a church I go to in Bellevue.
We got tired of plunging them though, and replaced them with 1.6 gallon TOTO Drakes and Ultramax toilets, and we have never looked back. I don't know where the plunger is anymore.
It's nice that you still have that and it's working.

As far as the original question goes, sometimes the water comes in so quick that you can get a little bounce.
Maybe closing down the valve a bit at the wall will help.

 

[girldog]

Mainly we worried that if there was excessive line pressure we would blow out the fill valve and have a fountain in the toilet tank. I will try backing off the cut off valve at the wall a bit and see if that reduces the barely perceptible wave that may actuate the float ball. Thanks everyone - I'll let you know how it goes.....

girldog

 

[girldog]

A pressure gauge with a garden hose thread is cheap. I don't know how pressure would do what you say, but it is easy to check.

How far below the overflow is the water level?

Regarding the flapper, hmmm... I wonder why it stops cycling, and why is it so predictable. Interesting mystery. I was thinking along the line that maybe the float is stiff and it takes a while to conform to the seat each time. Weird idea.

So may be the next time you flush, you apply a little downward pressure to the ball so the water enters just a little longer. Does the water not cut on this time? It's not that I have a good idea, but this test result may lead somebody to an idea.

There are two questions above.

The water is 1" below the top of the overflow pipe. It doesn't matter whether you apply downward or upward pressure on the ball - shortly after releasing pressure the on the float ball the valve opens briefly, shuts off 4 times then shuts off until the next time we flush it.

 

[TheUniversalDave1]

The working part of a Coast ballcock is virtually indestructible. The only way I have ever seen a Coast valve fail is when the main tube before the piston developed a hairline crack after 16 years of service. If you haven't noticed, yes I'm biased towards Coast. Korky is my next choice though.

 

[Plumbs Away]

I would replace the fill valve with a Fluidmaster, which I favor because they are inexpensive, available everywhere, and the only part to fail is the $3.00 seal beneath the simple twist-off cap. It's the easiest valve to maintain/repair. That's my experience and opinion and I'm sticking with it.

 

[TheUniversalDave1]

I respectfully disagree with Plumbs Away. In my 14 years' experience, I have seen Fluidmaster valves fail in many ways. If you must replace the Coast, the Korky valve is your best option. The Korky design has no friction between the float and valve, unlike the Fluidmaster, which has a sliding motion that can eventually become a problem. Korky products are made in Burlington, Wisconsin, and Fluidmasters are Hecho en Mexico.

 

[hj]

Your refill tube may be stuck too far down into the overflow pipe.

 

[girldog]

Nope, the refill tube is right where it should be. The resolution to this issue was this: I put a pressure gauge on the water line and it read between 130-140psi. We had a look at the water pressure regulator, a Wilkins 600, installed in 1985 (how's that for long lasting?!), and sure enough, it was frozen, eaten up, etc. etc. We replaced the ball valve, pressure regulator and check valve and got a very nice 60psi on the water line. Flushed the toilet and lo and behold no turbulence, a ghost filling at all. I now have new faucet valves, a new fill valve, new everything - think I can make it another 30 years?

 

[Reach4]

Glad it is working nicely. You should set the pressure tank air precharge between 60 to 65 PSI with no water pressure. Pressure tank instructions probably say the same as the PRV regulated pressure, but a little higher can be a little better I think. (there are some who think differently) The expansion tank should not have had to deal with 130 to 140 PSI, and it could be already bad. With a faucet on at a trickle, the pressure tank should be empty of water. Knock on it to see if it sounds empty. If it is not empty, replace the expansion tank. The expansion tank's job is to absorb the increased volume that water has when the water heater heats it.

 

[girldog]

We don't have an expansion tank. We have rural municipal water supply with tap to the house from the street line.

 

[Reach4]

You need an expansion tank.