Putting tub spout on 4 port diverter valve with shower heads?

Discussion in 'Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog' started by dujour, Dec 15, 2009.

  1. dujour

    dujour New Member

    Messages:
    16
    Location:
    Mass.
    Hello,

    I am in the process of picking out new fixtures for my tub/shower. The only good thing about the current fixtures is a separate handle to switch between tub spout and shower head -- that is, there is no diverter on the tub spout itself. This is nice because we almost exclusively take showers, so the valve is almost always in the right place, and best of all the tub diverter doesn't decide to dump all the water out of the pipe just as I am falling asleep :) I don't know if that's a universal problem with spout mounted diverters, but it has been the case in a number of bathrooms I've had.

    Anyway, in the new bath I am going with a main shower head plus a hand shower, and plan on using a separate diverter valve to switch between them. Specifically I'm looking at using the Delta R11600 valve, which is a 3 port / 6 function unit. Can I put the tub spout on that diverter valve along with the two shower heads and plug the extra outlet on the main control (Delta T17T430)? If so, does it make a difference if I plug the tub or shower outlet on the main valve?

    The only issue I can think of is I would need to make sure that the tub spout did not have a functioning integral diverter. Other than that is this a reasonable thing to do, or am I asking for trouble by doing something out of the ordinary?

    Thanks!
  2. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,045
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    diverter

    The way you describe it, there should be no problem. Use the bottom opening and plug the top, because the port to the bottom is considerably larger than the top one. When I do it, depending on where the diverter/valve is located, I might either invert the valve and go up to it, or connect both top and bottom together before proceeding to the diverter or shower head.
  3. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,045
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    extra port

    I should have mentioned that they do NOT recommending capping the unused port. Tee it into one of the others, otherwise you COULD turn the diverter to that position to shut off the water flow, but leave the control valve turned on which would create a crossover flow problem and give you all kinds of temperature fluctuations in the rest of the house.
  4. dujour

    dujour New Member

    Messages:
    16
    Location:
    Mass.
    Ok, thanks. In the configuration I'm thinking of there won't be any unused ports on the diverter -- only on the mixer valve. Here's a quick sketch:

    [​IMG]

    Does that still sound reasonable?


    Not having used one of these diverters before I'm wondering what the 6 positions are. If the output ports are A, B, C are the 6 positions A, A+B, B, B+C, C, C+A? That would mean that effectively 3 of the 6 positions would be the tub spout only, assuming the resistance in the shower heads was much larger than the spout, right?. Kind of weird but no big deal I guess.
  5. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,045
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    spout

    Usually it would mean most of the water would come out of the spout, but some will dribble from the shower head. The resistance is from the valve, through the diverter and down to the spout. The degree of resistance will determine how much water comes from the shower head.
  6. dujour

    dujour New Member

    Messages:
    16
    Location:
    Mass.
    That makes sense. Two tub+dribble positions plus one tub only position. I guess there's no way around that.

    Can the Delta R10000 valve body be installed upside down to avoid the four 90s going from the tub outlet to the diverter valve?
  7. dujour

    dujour New Member

    Messages:
    16
    Location:
    Mass.
    By the way, I'm not doing this work myself -- it's not allowed here -- I'm just planning everything out as detailed as I can. How the plumbing is arranged will dictate where the tile lines up, etc.
  8. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,045
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    valve

    That is the ONLY way I would install it for ANY shower only installation.
  9. dujour

    dujour New Member

    Messages:
    16
    Location:
    Mass.
    Ok, thanks again for your help.
  10. Wowie Zowie

    Wowie Zowie New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    Midwest MN
    We are doing a similar installation with a Kohler 922 laminar flow wall mount tub filler, and single shower head. We are using a Delta Monitor 17T Flow/Temp control with a Delta 3 port / 3 function diverter (T11892). Based on the above, am I correct in assuming that we have to cap off one of the ports on the 17T, or rather, T one of them back into the copper that will go to the 3 port diverter to avoid the crossover issue, and not plumb one of the ports directly to the tub filler from the 17T? It seems the only solution to me given what we have selected and purchased. Diverter functions would then be A = Shower, B = Shower and Tub Filler, C = Tub Filler. Not totally crazy about Funtion B but the selection would be made prior to turning the water on so no big deal. Thanks in advance!
  11. Wowie Zowie

    Wowie Zowie New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    Midwest MN
    OK, here is an image showing the layout that the plumbing supply outfit suggested. In a nutshell, the hot and cold feeds enter the Temp/Flow Valve, and depart south directly to the diverterless tub filler (Kohler 922 Laminar Flow), and north to the 3 function diverter. The left and right ports on the diverter are capped per their direction. They claim that when the diverter is in Postition 1 water will flow north to the shower head and not south to the tub filler. I find this difficult to believe. It seems to me water would flow both north and south from the Flow Valve under that scenario. I believe that all the flow from the flow valve should flow first to the diverter, which will in turn act as the router for which lines/devices receive water. Am I missing something? Any help appreciated!

    Attached Files:

  12. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,045
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    Using your drawing there is absolutely NOTHING to keep water from flowing from the tub spout WHENEVER the valve is turned on. And since you are only using ONE port on the diverter, WHY do you need it in the first place. Either eliminate it and use a Delta "pull down" diverter spout which ALWAYS drains the water when you turn off the valve, or connect one, or both of the unused diverter openings down to the spout. DO NOT cap off ANY openings on the multiport diverter, either use them for devices, or interconnect them with whatever is using one of the other ports.
  13. Wowie Zowie

    Wowie Zowie New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    Midwest MN
    Thanks for the reply hj - that is exactly what I thought. The plumbing supplier gave us these directions, I questioned them from the start but they said it was the thing to do. The diverter trim we are using is a three-way and only uses the "north" and "west" ports in the three function setting. (In a 6 function diverter the east port would also be used.) 3 function = North to the shower head in Position 1, north and west in Position 2, and West in Position 3. We are going to plumb it so the west port goes to the tub filler as it has no diverter on it, and the north port to the shower head. Position 2 would send water to both which will probably never be used but if so would just result in water coming from both devices - not practical but no harm I guess. Again, thanks for your input - greatly appreciated.
  14. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,266
    Location:
    New England
    Connect two ports to the tub spout, or two to the showerhead, and it will only switch between the two. A diverter spout would have been much less expensive, and easier.
  15. Wowie Zowie

    Wowie Zowie New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    Midwest MN
    Agreed - a spout diverter would have been much easier. I should add we are doing a whirlpool tub with shower and were trying to avoid having a typical tub or roman spout in the tub to make it more it more pleasant for two... We chose to use the Kohler 922 laminar flow "hole in the wall" as the tub filler to eliminate obstructions. It does not have a diverter so we needed to install one between the flow valve and the shower head and the tub filler. I really appreciate your comments. Bottom line is that we will correct the installation and test before the finishing work is completed. Thanks again!
  16. TWEAK

    TWEAK New Member

    Messages:
    86
    Location:
    Bay Area CA
    I rigged my tub/shower exactly as shown in post #4 and it works perfectly. I used Porcher parts, but same exact configuration.

    The Porcher diverter has a port marked with a little cast in symbol of a tub. This is the high flow port. I connected that port to the main shower head instead of the the tub spout. The shower head is one of those oversized rain heads. I don't mind that the tub takes an extra couple of minutes to fill, but I really like getting the extra flow to the large shower head. Not being an expert, I called Porcher to confirm that I wasn't going to create some subtle problem by doing this and their guy said that others have used the high flow port for the shower head and it works well. More water consumption of course, and therefore not politically correct.... but works well.

    Also, fully agree with hj on using the bottom port (the one that would connect to the tub spout) and plugging the top. In my case the piping run was a tiny bit less straightforward but the tub port is most often the high flow port - that's the one you want feeding the diverter. Thought about connecting the top and bottom together but it seems to run well on just the tub spout outlet. If I had body sprays or some such, or was just feeling energetic, connecting the top and bottom together and using them to feed the diverter would be best.
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2010
  17. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,045
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    IF the diverter uses "port 3" for an additional device and not as a "combined A & B", then it MUST be connected to one of the other devices. Otherwise you could rotate the diverter to that position and shut off all the flow, but leave the faucet open and in a bypassing condition.

    Connecting the top and bottom together is just a "belt and suspenders" approach. The full flow goes to the bottom so there is little reason, other than ideological, to use both, but some might feel better doing it.
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2010
  18. steve_

    steve_ New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    sacto, ca
    Belt & Suspenders?

    Does the full flow really come out of the tub port? I am upgrading my stand up shower by adding a second shower head, but leaving the existing Pfister Avante valve intact. I have read about this two into one arrangement, thinking that would be full flow. My goal is to run both heads at the same time, so I am looking for everything I can get from my pipes. I didn't want to install a diverter, just using a valve at the second head when not in use. Do you think I would benefit from the suspenders?
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