Pump options for shallow well?

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jmlmr2

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I have a 15' deep, 30" diameter hand dug, loose stone cased, spring-fed well. The static water level tends to be around 5' (which equates to around 185 gal), sometimes higher, and when the water level drops below 5' the well refills almost immediately. A 1/2 hp jet pump on a 30/50 pressure switch has been handling the pumping duties for the past 30+ years (I've only been at the house, itself 200 years old, for about 3 years, but my plumber has been working at the house for decades). The pump is giving out, and the simplest course would be to replace it with another 1/2 hp jet pump, which is my plumber's default recommendation. However, after seeing some of valveman's posts regarding the use of submersible pumps laid on their side in situations like mine, I was thinking that might be a better solution. With 5' of water I could probably go vertical, but the horizontal solution seemed like a more certain way to keep the pump off the bottom of the well while also giving the most leeway should the water level drop below the levels I've observed. Of course, that assumes that I can source a submersible pump that is less than 24" in length to give room for fittings, dropping it into the unevenly shaped well, etc. Any thoughts/input on this would be appreciated.

In terms of pumps, what would you recommend in terms of flow rate? I'm assuming a 5GPM pump would be sufficient? Also, the constant pressure valves seem to be a favorite on this board - would you recommend adding one as part of this install?

Thanks in advance!
 

Reach4

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In terms of pumps, what would you recommend in terms of flow rate? I'm assuming a 5GPM pump would be sufficient?
You don't want a 5 GPM 1/2 HP submersible, because it is designed for much deeper water. If you look at the curves and graphs, you would see that pump is designed for deeper conditons. You should be OK with a 10 GPM 1/2 HP pump and maybe a 44 gallon diaphram pressure tank. Set your pressure switch for 40/60 or 50/70 PSI. If you wanted a bigger presure tank or a CSV, you could go for a 15 GPM 1/2 HP. A 15 GPM would actually be shorter and probably cheaper than a 10, because it would have fewer stages.

It would be nice if you could choose 1/4 HP submersible pumps, but I don't think those are readily available.

This pump will be a lot quieter than your jet pump.
 

Valveman

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A 10 GPM, 1/2 HP sub should fit as you describe, and could pump up to 12- 15 GPM. You don't want a 15 GPM series as a 1/2 HP one of those would not build enough pressure for a 40/60 pressure switch. You also don't need a 44 gallon tank if you go with a CSV. A 4.5 gallon size tank that comes with a CSV in the Pside-Kick kit would be everything you need to control that pump.

It maybe a 19th century house but there is no reason why you can't have 21st century pressure. :)
 

jmlmr2

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Thanks for the help Reach & Valveman!

I should have mentioned that I have a ~44 gal (19 gal drawdown) pressure tank in the current system. What are the advantages/disadvantages to retaining the larger tank in conjunction with the CSV? My understanding is that the larger tank would lead to a longer duration of water pressure greater/less than the CSV set point, but it seems to me like it would also give a larger buffer of "nuisance loads" such as hand washing, ice maker filling, even toilet flushing, before the pump has to cycle. Related question: how does the pressure stay at 50psi if the pump switch isn't cutting in until 40psi? Is that another reason for using the smaller pressure tank, to minimize the time at pressure above/below 50psi?

In terms of pump brands, I've read the guidance to stay away from the "big box" pumps, but beyond that are there any brands to target or avoid?
 

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Thanks for the help Reach & Valveman!

I should have mentioned that I have a ~44 gal (19 gal drawdown) pressure tank in the current system. What are the advantages/disadvantages to retaining the larger tank in conjunction with the CSV? My understanding is that the larger tank would lead to a longer duration of water pressure greater/less than the CSV set point, but it seems to me like it would also give a larger buffer of "nuisance loads" such as hand washing, ice maker filling, even toilet flushing, before the pump has to cycle. Related question: how does the pressure stay at 50psi if the pump switch isn't cutting in until 40psi? Is that another reason for using the smaller pressure tank, to minimize the time at pressure above/below 50psi?

In terms of pump brands, I've read the guidance to stay away from the "big box" pumps, but beyond that are there any brands to target or avoid?

A 44 gallon tank only holds 12 gallons of water. But yes the larger tank would give you 12 gallons to use for "intermittent uses", which would let you flush a toilet 7 times before the pump would start. And if you already have a good tank there is no reason not to use it.

But the CSV cannot do anything or hold a steady 50 PSI until the pressure tank has drained from 60 to 40 and the pressure switch starts the pump. So you would be 4 minutes into a 3 GPM shower as the pressure decreased from 60 to 40 before you would see constant 50 PSI. Then the CSV would hold 50 PSI constant even if you were in the shower for a month.

With the small tank you will have 1 gallon to use before the pump starts. This takes care of the icemaker and hand washing. And you would have constant pressure to the shower before you get the temp adjusted and get in. Also people in a house use water at the same time quite often. So if someone in another part of the house was flushing a toilet, using a shower, or running a sink, the pump would already be on and the CSV would just open up to deliver enough extra water for a toilet flush without causing an additional pump cycle. Even if someone was repeatedly flushing a toilet, as happens a lot with the low volume flushers, the pump would just stay running and not cycle for every flush. So the only time the small tank would cause a single pump cycle, is if you flush a toilet once and walk away. That doesn't happen very many times per day, so pump cycling for intermittent uses don't add up to much.

It is important that the pump not repeatedly cycle while the shower is on or during other long term uses of water. The CSV can eliminate dozens or even hundred of cycles per day for long term uses. It is not important if the pump cycles 20-30 times a day for single toilet flushes.

Since you already have a 44 gallon tank I would certainly not throw it away. Just add a CSV1A to eliminate cycling for long term uses of water. But if/when the 44 gallon tank fails, I would certainly not spend the extra money replacing it. On the average the larger tank will only reduce cycling for intermittent uses by about 10 cycles per day compared to the CSV and a 4.5 gallon size tank. That is not enough of a benefit to spend the extra cash on a large tank, plus with the small tank you would have constant pressure without waiting 4 minutes it the shower.
 

jmlmr2

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Even 40psi would be nice - with the jet pump going out I've had to lower the cutout pressure to just below 40psi to keep the pump from running constantly, so I'm in the 20-40psi range for the time being!

If I'm keeping the 40 gal pressure tank for the time being, is there any reason not to use a CSV12550-1 in-line before the pump switch and pressure tank?
 

jmlmr2

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...also, any recommendations for how to center the pump within the flow inducer assuming the pump will be mounted horizontally? Would it make more sense to mount the pump vertically but build a "J" at the bottom of the inducer so that I can set the pump on the bottom of the well and not suck dirt? I can't foresee a scenario where the motor would ever not be submerged even in that vertical scenario; in fact, the pickup for the jet pump looks to be ~2' from the bottom of the well. Is there any advantage/disadvantage to going vertical vs. horizontal with the pump?
 

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Even 40psi would be nice - with the jet pump going out I've had to lower the cutout pressure to just below 40psi to keep the pump from running constantly, so I'm in the 20-40psi range for the time being!
If I'm keeping the 40 gal pressure tank for the time being, is there any reason not to use a CSV12550-1 in-line before the pump switch and pressure tank?

Well you can't use a 50 PSI CSV with a 20/40 switch. And if your pump is that weak it is still running with a demand of 1 GPM anyway, so a CSV would not help. The CSV is for pumps that produce more than you need, so you can use as little as you want without hurting the pump.

You could use a CSV12540-1 with a 30/50 switch if you had a little stronger pump.

...also, any recommendations for how to center the pump within the flow inducer assuming the pump will be mounted horizontally? Would it make more sense to mount the pump vertically but build a "J" at the bottom of the inducer so that I can set the pump on the bottom of the well and not suck dirt? I can't foresee a scenario where the motor would ever not be submerged even in that vertical scenario; in fact, the pickup for the jet pump looks to be ~2' from the bottom of the well. Is there any advantage/disadvantage to going vertical vs. horizontal with the pump?

No need in centering the pump in a shroud. It won't hurt anything to be laying on one side a little. And you can't get the last couple of feet of water out of a storage tank unless you lay the pump on the side. Standing up the pump will loose suction when the water level gets close to the intake.
 

jmlmr2

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Sorry for the confusion - I had to back my pressure switch off to around 20/40 over the past week or so to compensate for the jet pump being on its last legs and no longer able to build 40psi of pressure. The switch was set at approx 30/50 for years prior to the pump wearing out. With a submersible I don't foresee 40/60 being an issue.

With the current jet pump pickup set 2' off the bottom of the well, I haven't ever been able to access water lower than that. I could get away with a vertical pump orientation (the intake would be lower than the current pickup tube) but I agree that going horizontal (with 100% of the pump <10" off the bottom) will allow me to access more of the water in the well should I ever have the need.
 

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No I'm sorry. I do about 20 of these everyday and just didn't read up far enough. I forgot you were changing to a sub. So yes you can use one of the CSV12550-1 valves. You can even put it on top of the pump down in the well. It is stronger than the pipe and you can use it like a piece of pipe to hang the pump from. Just let me know if it is going to be submerged as I have to make a vent larger. It doesn't cost extra, you just have to let us know it is submerged when you order. The pressure tank and pressure switch can be as far away as needed after the CSV. You can even tee into the line anywhere between the well and the pressure tank.

And then you are correct, there is no need to lay the pump on its side. Hanging straight should also make for an easier install. But either way you want to put a flow inducer or cooling shroud over the motor, especially because the well is so large in diameter.
 

Texas Wellman

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Hmmm....If it ain't broke don't fix it. I would go back with the jet pump set-up. If you need more water/pressure go with a larger pump.
 

DonL

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Hmmm....If it ain't broke don't fix it. I would go back with the jet pump set-up. If you need more water/pressure go with a larger pump.

Are you allowed to post something that makes sense on the forum ? :D
 

Ballvalve

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Hmmm....If it ain't broke don't fix it. I would go back with the jet pump set-up. If you need more water/pressure go with a larger pump.

30 years? Why fool around with all the new convolutions? If you really need a submersible, think of a cistern pump - you don't need a flow inducer and it stands upright - the water flows over the motor. have a look: http://www.rainstormsolutions.com/cisternpumps.html

And also the Chinese version just for fun: http://www.tuhorse.us/categories/submersible-pumps/submersible-cistern-pump.html

And another: http://www.amazon.com/Sta-Rite-20DOM05121-D-Series-Submersible-Effluent/dp/B0089FO7F2?SubscriptionId=AKIAJJY2YKHHLJKYIBNA&tag=slk03b1-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B0089FO7F2

And finally, except it does not say who made the motor, or it's domestic at all: http://www.amazon.com/Red-Lion-14942405-230-Volt-Submersible/dp/B005WAI53C/ref=pd_sim_sbs_328_8?ie=UTF8&dpID=31eSHi9x95L&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160,160_&refRID=0GA0VHPRHPDNKJ4XF4M5 And you don't need to angle it, since the motor is so short anyway.
 
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Valveman

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I agree yours is the perfect application for a jet pump. Shallow well, plenty of volume, plenty of room.

But there are reasons for a submersible. Quieter, no priming, and more gpm per HP because you would be pusing water instead of sucking water.

And I think those cistern subs have ball bearings instead of Kingsbury bearings, which means rhere life is figured in hours instead of decades.
 

Ballvalve

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I agree yours is the perfect application for a jet pump. Shallow well, plenty of volume, plenty of room.

But there are reasons for a submersible. Quieter, no priming, and more gpm per HP because you would be pusing water instead of sucking water.

And I think those cistern subs have ball bearings instead of Kingsbury bearings, which means rhere life is figured in hours instead of decades.

I doubt they have ball bearings unless they are oil filled... don't think they have a water lubed ball bearing yet.... okay, Looked at the Goulds. Says its running in a protected oil chamber, then says the lower bearing is urethane resin. [?] http://www.rainstormsolutions.com/Info_ERSGouldsPumps.pdf
 
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jmlmr2

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So, I admit that just replacing the jet pump would be the simplest solution. The current pump was installed when the house had at least one less bathroom, so a stronger pump would likely be spec'd if starting from scratch (and that is the recommendation of the plumber who has been working at the house for decades). The added volume capacity of the submersible pump would be welcomed, along with the possibility of going to a 40/60 setup from our current 20/40. 60/40 should also be possible with the right jet pump though, especially considering that it's lifting the water only 10-12'.

My desire to switch to a submersible is mainly to alleviate the noise of the jet pump. The pump sits in the basement below the living/dining room, and the noise of the jet pump is fairly obtrusive. I'm still debating with the plumber about switching to a submersible, but he tends toward the stance of Texas and Ballvalve. We have the added complication that the old galvanized pipe leading from the well (which is immediately next to the house, under an attached patio) to the pump is buried about 5' under a slate patio, which runs about 6' horizontally until going through a 28" thick stone foundation wall. In all likelihood, that pipe is crudded up inside to the point that it should also be replaced as part of this project. Getting the old rusty pipe out in one piece and getting a new piece of plastic through the existing hole will likely be an adventure, and trying to get a piece of electrical wire (to power a submersible) through that same hole would likely prove challenging to say the least.

Thanks again for all of the suggestions/feedback
 

Reach4

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You are assessing the situation nicely. There are alternatives.

There is room to put new 3/4 inch poly through 1-1/4 galvanized usually, if it is a straight run. No room for wires. You can put over 10 gpm through that 3/4 poly.

If you could trench wires from the garage or elsewhere to the casing, it is possible to have the pressure switch and pressure tank out there. The pressure tank would be buried. There could be a big pressure tank buried in the yard, or there could be a smaller one at the pressure switch and a bigger one inside the house. The pressure switch would be a special one. So this would be a fairly big project, but not require digging up the patio.
 

jmlmr2

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Reach - the layout is tough to explain without a diagram (even pictures wouldn't be that helpful). There is unfortunately no way to get to the well without digging up the patio (or taking the current route of going through the stone foundation wall); the patio sits on a stone foundation and is topped with cement/slate. There is an existing pressure tank in the basement as well, and space isn't an issue on that front. We're going to use the existing hole one way or another...

Running wires for a submersible could obviously be problematic, and is another thing tilting the scales in favor of sticking with a jet pump.
 

Valveman

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Sounds like that old pipe needs to be replaced anyway. Maybe you could get someone to use a trenchless system to pull a new pipe through the old one. If they could pull through a 2" conduit, you could run a 1" pipe and a wire through the same hole.
 

Boycedrilling

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It's these types of situations that made me decide to buy a Vermeer directional drill. I also have rod pushers, that can also be used as pipe splitter to pull new pipe thru the route of the existing pipe.

I've gone under the lawn, under the side walk and curbing, 140 ft across a parking lot, under the other curb, then pulled new pipe back again. Did the same for the conduit.
 
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