Pulling a submersible pump

[Abikerboy]

New pump question

In my opinion the average life of a submersible pump (of good quality) will last on the average 7 years. I know customers that have gotten 30+ years and some that have problems in the first couple of years. The tank has a lot to do with the longevity of a pump. bob...

Now I have another question. Since my well is shared by three of us, and the original pump was installed in 1993, should I maybe replace it before it fails? The above post just has be slightly nervous. I asked the well guy, and a plumber the same question. The well guy, who inspects the system once a year says "leave it alone. It makes good pressure, and is still pumping above its capacity." The plumber I asked, says "if you've got the money as of now, have the well man replace it. Rebuild the old one...new motor and bushings, and put it away for a spare." I found some paperwork on my pump, which is a goulds 10EJ10422, 1 hp, 2 wire, with "monitrol system". Dont know what monitrol is, but I do know that I have a panel beside my breaker box which has a green light, a yellow light, and a red light, and is marked " submersible pump protection and monitoring system". The green light is on all of the time. I was told if the yellow light ever comes on, advise everyone to slow down their water use. If the pump shuts down, which it never has, the red light will blink. He said if this happens, press the reset button, wait a couple of hours, and press the restart button. I ASSume this is some kind of water level monitor, but have never had any light on except the green light, so have never messed with it. Anyway, my main concern is making sure that everyone always has water. Leave it alone, or replace the pump? What do you guys think? Thanks for any advice.
Rob

 

[Bob NH]

I would not rebuild an old pump by replacing the bushings and motor. The pump and motor part are separate and the pump is the less expensive part. I suspect that labor and parts would exceed the cost of a new pump end.

With respect to my earlier post where I mentioned a relief valve pressure/capacity requirement; the relief valve is required to prevent the system pressure from exceeding the safe operating pressure of the tank if the pump control system fails. That means it must discharge the flow of the pump at the safe pressure of the tank.

A relief valve pressure rating without a flow rating, which is often defined as flow rate at 10% over the pressure setting, has no real meaning.

If you have a tank that is rated for 75 psi, then the relief valve must discharge whatever the pump will pump at 75 psi. A 75 psi valve on a 75 psi tank will almost certainly not meet the requirements.

If the tank is rated at 125 psi, then the relief valve must discharge whatever the pump will pump at 125 psi. A 3/4" 75 psi relief valve on a 125 psi rated tank is not likely to be a problem on a residential system with a 15 GPM pump.

One test of a relief valve system is to lock the pump on with the water usage turned off and see if the relief valve will discharge enough flow to keep the tank pressure below its safe operating pressure. THIS IS NOT A TEST TO BE RUN AS AN EXPERIMENT BY HOMEOWNERS!

 

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[Abikerboy]

Thanks for the info. My system does not have a p/r valve, but I have obtained a high pressure electric switch which I will be having installed. Since there are other houses on my well, I do have everything inspected and tested once a year, usually during the dry part of summer just to be safe. The pump man does a pressure check, and a flow check at the well, and he checks the water level also. I just got slightly nervous when I read a post concerning average pump life. I guess that as long as it is being checked out once a year, any upcoming failure would show up in the check.
Thanks
Rob

 

[Gary Slusser]

With respect to my earlier post where I mentioned a relief valve pressure/capacity requirement; the relief valve is required to prevent the system pressure from exceeding the safe operating pressure of the tank if the pump control system fails. That means it must discharge the flow of the pump at the safe pressure of the tank.

A relief valve pressure rating without a flow rating, which is often defined as flow rate at 10% over the pressure setting, has no real meaning.

If you have a tank that is rated for 75 psi, then the relief valve must discharge whatever the pump will pump at 75 psi. A 75 psi valve on a 75 psi tank will almost certainly not meet the requirements.

If the tank is rated at 125 psi, then the relief valve must discharge whatever the pump will pump at 125 psi. A 3/4" 75 psi relief valve on a 125 psi rated tank is not likely to be a problem on a residential system with a 15 GPM pump.

One test of a relief valve system is to lock the pump on with the water usage turned off and see if the relief valve will discharge enough flow to keep the tank pressure below its safe operating pressure. THIS IS NOT A TEST TO BE RUN AS AN EXPERIMENT BY HOMEOWNERS!

I've never seen or heard of a well pressure tank with less than a 100-125 psi rating.

Are you referring to a code? If so what code?

In my opinion a 3/4" PR valve on any pipe size larger than 3/4" can't possibly flow at whatever gpm the smallest submersible pump used for a residential application can flow at. Let alone at up to 125 psi. With a 1.25" or even 1" outlet on the pump (standard is 1.25") and then at least a 1" drop pipe to a 1" tank tee (the residential standard), any 1/2 hp 10-13 gpm pump would be too large for the max flow rate of a 75 psi rated PR valve. As far as I know, the codes call for the 75 psi PR rating, I've never heard of any flow rating requirement. Only that the PRV open and discharge whatever gpm at 75 psi the pump can deliver.

Many residential submersible pumps will deadhead before they reach 125 psi. Without knowing the hp, and looking at the pump chart for the 15 gpm pump you mention, no one can say what the deadhead pressure or gpm at the PR could/would be. Bob, Ron, you guys know a lot more about this than I do, am I close or way off the mark?

As a guy doing a pump condition or other check on a consumer's well/pump, I'd never run that max pressure test.

bikerboy, as to the annual service checks... At what I might guess as to the cost, you'd be much better off saving that money toward service up to and including a total pump, drop pipe and cable replacement whenever you lose water. I say that because once a year ohms/amps check with open or flow controlled discharge readings isn't going to prevent the pump from failing the next day due to a shorted motor or cable, broken shaft etc..

 

[Speedbump]

I'd say your on the money Gary. The only time I would recommend changing a pump before it dies is when it has been the well for a long time in a high mineral environment. This is assuming a 4" pump in a 4" well. If the well is 5" or bigger I wouldn't be so concerned. I have a few customers who had pumps last 15+ years. When the pump died, it couldn't be moved. I have beat on several over the years with jars and double X pipe with a sinker bar and couldn't move them. After over an hour of beating, and my taper tap finally coming loose I gave up so as not to lose my tools. They had to drill new wells.

If a submersible pump is properly selected, which I believe 99% are by pro's, they won't make enough pressure to do any great harm. The biggest harm is to take out the bladder in a bladder tank without a dome. I think the plumbing and fixtures can take 100 psi. with no adverse effects. I once lived in a home that never had filtration. The plumbing was badly plugged up. So I increased my switch to 70/95 psi. It made a difference in the shower and other places. No problems even with the old galvanized plumbing.

bob...

 

[Abikerboy]

Guys, thank you all for the advice. Ive been contimplating the p/r valve thing, and I would personally feel safer if the pump were shut down completely in the event of a pressure switch failure. I have a high pressure cut out switch, which has the rated voltage at 300v and 50 amp max, and is a double throw switch. This switch is actually used in the water supply line to feed the pressure washers where I work, and if the pressure rises above a safe amount,(80 psi) it trips, shutting down the pressure washer pump, and the booster pump that feeds the pressure washer. The switch has a red toggle on top that must be reset to restore power to the system. My well man thinks this is a good idea, and is going to plumb this switch into the line for me to help protect everything. Also, concerning my pump question, since the well is shared with two other people, I deposit their payments to me in a savings account, so there is money there in case of a failure. I will take your advice, leave the pump alone while it is working, and when it does fail, the funds will be there for a replacement of pump and piping, and even for a new pressure tank, if that should decide to go. By the way, according to construction report, my well is bored to 8 inch hole size, with 6 inch casing, and due to underground cavern is cased to 165 feet, with slotted entrance, whatever that means.
Rob

 

[Gary Slusser]

I think you're going overboard but... you may find that a bit of water hammer, at or above that 80 psi, causes you to be running back'n forth turning that switch on more frequently than any regular pressure switch would "fail" by staying on too long. I think you have been spooked by BobNH's talk about PR valves. The vast majority of wells here do not have a PR valve and they have operated just fine for decades on rural electric systems. BTW, PA had the largest rural population in the US for decades until TX surpassed us in 2000. If it works here it should work everywhere. Switches rarely fail by staying closed; I've never seen or heard of that happening to cause a problem. I'd install a 75 psi PR valve and be done with it.

 

[Abikerboy]

I think you're going overboard but... you may find that a bit of water hammer, at or above that 80 psi, causes you to be running back'n forth turning that switch on more frequently than any regular pressure switch would "fail" by staying on too long. I think you have been spooked by BobNH's talk about PR valves. The vast majority of wells here do not have a PR valve and they have operated just fine for decades on rural electric systems. BTW, PA had the largest rural population in the US for decades until TX surpassed us in 2000. If it works here it should work everywhere. Switches rarely fail by staying closed; I've never seen or heard of that happening to cause a problem. I'd install a 75 psi PR valve and be done with it.

Hi
Yes, I got a little spooked, but I did have a bad experience a couple of years ago. My tank is burried, and my pressure switch is in the top of my well, and connected to the pitless by a long rubber hose. Had this hose break a couple of years back, and without the hose, the pump ran all of the time. First noticed the problem when I had a flexible feed line blow off of my toilet and flooded my master bathroom. Called a plumber in, who mentioned he had just replaced the neighbors toilet line the day before (we share the same well), and that the pressure seemed excessive. Called a pump man, who measured the pressure at around 100 psi. Replaced the flex line between the pressure switch and the pitless, and solved that problem. Problem is, with my tank burried, I dont have access to the tank tee or the line to install a p/r valve, so was going to install the pressure cut out switch in the supply line to my house, and run the power cable for the well through the switch. That way, if the sensing line to the pressure switch in the well were to fail again, the cut out switch would shut the pump off when the water pressure coming into my house reaches about 80 psi. I am learning a lot from this site, but am becoming slightly paranoid about some things too! Lol!!
Rob

 

[Speedbump]

You don't want to move the switch away from the tank. But you could add another switch as a safety somewhere else in the plumbing where you can also access the electrical. Just set it a little higher than the main switch.

bob...

 

[Abikerboy]

You don't want to move the switch away from the tank. But you could add another switch as a safety somewhere else in the plumbing where you can also access the electrical. Just set it a little higher than the main switch.

bob...

Thanks. That answered my question. What is a safe distance from the tank for this second switch?

 

[justhanging]

abikerboy

Static water level is the level of water in the well with no pumping. Dynamic water level is the level of water in the well after a certain lenght of time in pumping. This can change depending on the capacity of the well and pump.

Just replaced a 20 year old Goulds pump with a 13gs Goulds. The pump head was ok but the Franklin motor was on the way out. Lucky for me also is the galvanized pipe was ready to spring a few leaks at the joints.

 

[Speedbump]

It doesn't really matter as long as it is on the same size piping.


bob...