Pros, please check me on this before I buy a new pressure tank - THANKS!

[jswordy]

My well system supplies a farm and has a house, shop and 3 outdoor hydrants on it. The pump is a lightning-arrestor protected 1/2 hp or 3/4 hp Jacuzzi (it has been several years since I installed it and I cannot recall what we put down the hole as far as hp). I do most of the work on our farm's mechanical systems and installed the present system after drilling a new well. The well is 70 feet, the pump sits at 50 and mean water level is 30 feet. In winter, it is much higher than that. It replaced a hand-dug well and jet pump with 20-gallon tank.

In this system as it was set up when we bought the farm, the dug well was inside the home with the tank and pump next to it. At 25 feet, the well was just inadequate for modern day use. In the drilled well system I installed, the well is in the yard, but the tank and pressure switch are in the room in the house. I have never had a problem with that setup in the first 7 years of operation.

My original installation used a 52-gallon rated Shur-Dri pressure tank from Tractor Supply Co. The pump discharge was great enough that a surge was felt when it kicked on and the water temp in the shower would change, so at the advice of my supplier I added a pressure regulator on the tank discharge (house and farm system) side. I was kicking the pump on at 50 and cutting out at 70, then regulating it on the discharge side to 40-60. This system worked perfectly for 7 years, then the bladder went and the tank waterlogged.

OK, at that time I decided to increase tank volume in order to eliminate the supply-side regulator and use a lower cut in/out range of 40-60. I reasoned that this would be easier on the pump and on the bladder. I went to an 85-gallon rated tank sold by Tractor Supply Co. under its Countyline brand (these are made by Shur-Dri). On installation, I removed the pressure regulator from the system's house/farm supply side. I checked the tank air pressure - 38. Set it up to run 40-60 and all was well. Worked great. There was no more surge with the larger tank.

After three months, I got air entrained in the lines and sure enough, the bladder was burst and the tank waterlogged. I removed it, got another one from TSC and installed it. Worked great, but after three months, the bladder on this tank burst, too. So I removed it and requested a Shur-Dri brand from TSC (since my last one worked for 7 years). They complied. Worked fine, but here we are almost 3 months out again and it is releasing air into my water lines, so I know it too has burst. (I'm glad I installed unions near the tank the last time I renewed it!)

So I am now exploring Well-X-Trol as my replacement. I have a few practical questions before I buy, though:

1.) Is there any other reason in the system besides a thin diaphragm you can see that is why these newer tanks are failing when the smaller one bought 7 years ago lasted so long? Could it be because the size/volume is larger? I can't see how that would matter, but maybe? It's running 40-60 psi on the gauge with a 2 psi lag in the tank as it should have and all works well except the tank diaphragm busting every 3 months.

2.) It looks like I may have to order my Well-X-Trol tank online, since no one close supplies them. (In fact, almost no one except TSC supplies anything but the cheapest 20-gallon tanks around here.) What concerns should I have should I ever need warranty replacement?

3.) Should I order a Well-X-Trol in the 80-85 gallon range? Or should I size it smaller?

4.) I'll have to run my current busted tank until the new one arrives. I trust that will be inconvenient use due to the air in the water but not harmful?

What I really am wanting to know is, after 3 failures, could there be something in my system causing this? It was rock-steady reliable for 7 years until the 52-gallon tank's bladder went. I can't think of a single thing, myself, but you pros see a lot more different well systems than me.

Thanks.

 

[Valveman]

It has been my experience that cycling the pump on and off is the cause of most tank bladder failures, as well as failure of pump/motor and other controls. Regardless of the size of the tank, the bladder bends back and forth with each cycle of the pump, until it breaks like bending a wire until it breaks. Larger tanks should just cause fewer cycles than smaller tanks.

I also think it very important that the bladder be able to expand and contract fully, without touching the side or any part of the tank body. The diaphragm style tank like the Amtrol is one where the diaphragm does not touch the sides.

Other than that, limiting the cycling is the best way to get the most life out of any “bladder” tank. As you can see with the picture to the left, when you use a CSV before the tank, you don’t need a very large tank. With a 40/60 switch, the CSV would hold a steady 50 for the house while using water, similar to the regulator you once had. But the CSV also limits or eliminates the cycling, so a small tank can be used, as water just goes past the tank at 50 PSI, not into the tank, as long as you are using water.

Still, those tanks should be lasting longer, even if you are running a heat pump or sprinkler that makes the pump cycle 24/7. Of course most things these days are only designed to last through the warranty period. So a lot of them don’t even last that long.

The real problem is the abuse the cycling and especially the waterlogged tank are doing to your pump/motor.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[jswordy]

It has been my experience that cycling the pump on and off is the cause of most tank bladder failures, as well as failure of pump/motor and other controls. Regardless of the size of the tank, the bladder bends back and forth with each cycle of the pump, until it breaks like bending a wire until it breaks. Larger tanks should just cause fewer cycles than smaller tanks.

I also think it very important that the bladder be able to expand and contract fully, without touching the side or any part of the tank body. The diaphragm style tank like the Amtrol is one where the diaphragm does not touch the sides.

Other than that, limiting the cycling is the best way to get the most life out of any “bladder†tank. As you can see with the picture to the left, when you use a CSV before the tank, you don’t need a very large tank. With a 40/60 switch, the CSV would hold a steady 50 for the house while using water, similar to the regulator you once had. But the CSV also limits or eliminates the cycling, so a small tank can be used, as water just goes past the tank at 50 PSI, not into the tank, as long as you are using water.

Still, those tanks should be lasting longer, even if you are running a heat pump or sprinkler that makes the pump cycle 24/7. Of course most things these days are only designed to last through the warranty period. So a lot of them don’t even last that long.

The real problem is the abuse the cycling and especially the waterlogged tank are doing to your pump/motor.

Thanks. Believe me, with 85 rated gallons of capacity, the pump doesn't cycle much at all compared to the 52 gallon tank. An average shower cycles the pump once or maybe twice. The bigger tank has really smoothed out the house supply side. I think you've answered my main question. I need to buy another brand. TSC has already told me they will not refund my money (although there is a 1-year warranty on the tank) but they will provide me a card with the refund amount loaded on it. We go there enough that I can use that up in a year, but it still didn't sit very well with me.

 

[Craigpump]

I think Sta Rite makes Shur Dri along with FloTek and Sears tanks. The ones I have seen have 100psi bladders and honestly aren't much good.

The Well X Trol is in my opinion the best tank available. What you didn't say is how much water your pump moves which is important when sizing a tank, I want at least 2 minutes of run time between cut in and cut out.

I know that Well X Trols have a seven yr warranty when installed by a listened installer, I'm not sure about the warranty when done by a homeowner.

Like valveman said, short cycling a pump is a sure way to kill the pump motor, you need to replace the tank ASAP.

 

[jswordy]

I think Sta Rite makes Shur Dri along with FloTek and Sears tanks. The ones I have seen have 100psi bladders and honestly aren't much good.

The Well X Trol is in my opinion the best tank available. What you didn't say is how much water your pump moves which is important when sizing a tank, I want at least 2 minutes of run time between cut in and cut out.

I know that Well X Trols have a seven yr warranty when installed by a listened installer, I'm not sure about the warranty when done by a homeowner.

Like valveman said, short cycling a pump is a sure way to kill the pump motor, you need to replace the tank ASAP.

Thanks. I really appreciate the responses.

It's a good point about short-cycling and I'm aware of it. I'm glad I have a sturdy ally in the Jacuzzi pump, which is one of the best submersibles made if you ask me. I even know someone who has laid one sideways in a spring box. That's a huge no-no that I would never recommend, but it has been happily pumping away for 24 years now.

There's still air in the tank I have, it just has a bladder leak. I today ordered a WaterWorker diaphragm tank (made for Home Depot by Amtrol with the Well-X-Trol design and materials; 5-year warranty, as opposed to 7 for Well-X-Trol, about half the Well-X-Trol price with the backing of a store in my town). I'll have to baby along my present system, adding some air now and again and putting up with entrained air, until the new tank comes in to my local HD store.

With the newer TSC tanks, I could literally hear the bladder moving on the tank walls as it expanded. I think that is the problem. The bladder rubs against a rough weld or edge in there and that eventually wears a hole in it. A diaphragm system should cure that. The HD diaphragm tank with 5-year warranty is actually a little bit cheaper than the TSC unit, which only has a 1-year warranty. The only reason I chose the TSC tank again in the first place was that I had had good luck with the 52-gallon one I first installed. Something changed, though, over 7 years. I found the literature for my old TSC tank, and they carried a 3-year warranty back then.

The pump was installed 7 years ago. Hard for me to remember, but I think it is an 8 or 12 gpm. It sure likes the 85-gallon tank and the water supply is smooth without a regulator, whereas it was cycling pretty fast with the 52 gallon and surging before I put the regulator on. So I'm sticking with an 86-gallon WaterWorker tank.

 

[Craigpump]

There is a big difference between the Water Worker and the WX series. The Water Worker and the WP series contractor tanks do not have the same heavy gauge diaphram as the WX series. The new WX diaphram is rated for 150 psi vs 100psi for the Water Worker and WP series. We have replaced more Water Worker and WP series tanks than I care to think about.

If it were me, I would cancel that order and get the WX series. I think you will be happier in the long run and so will your pump.

 

[Valveman]

You still have the same pressure differential as before (40/60). With the larger tank you are just at the lower pressure longer (40) and the higher pressure longer (60), so it doesn’t seem like so much of a surge. You wouldn’t believe how much stronger the pressure seems when it just holds constant at 50 PSI, using a CSV and only having a 4.5 gallon tank.

I use a lot of those 86 gallon tanks, but they are to run an entire city from, like this one.

 

[Valveman]

Amtrol says those tanks are not the same as the contractor grade Amtrol tanks. They are supposed to have recycled rubber for the diaphragm instead of virgin, and a rubber Schrader valve instead of metal, less warranty, and a lower pressure rating. But I can’t tell there is a nickel worth of difference in them.

Craig, I think the professional installation might be what is making the most difference between those tanks for you. Do you know why they are giving you so much of a problem?

 

[Craigpump]

Valveman, the ones that we have replaced have all had ruptured diaphragms. The few hundred dollars saved on the initial installation proved to be a false economy. The only Amtrol tank we will install is the WX series.

We have changed out tanks installed by different people, so I doubt it was an installation problem.

Remember the Sta Rite Signature 2000 tank? How many of those did you install and have to replace?

 

[Valveman]

Yeah I just can't believe Amtrol cheapened up their product, even though it is made for the Box Stores. But I guess they could make alot of changes inside the tank because nobody can see in there. I guess it shouldn't surprise me as it seems every company is building a cheaper version for those Box stores.

 

[jswordy]

Yeah I just can't believe Amtrol cheapened up their product, even though it is made for the Box Stores. But I guess they could make alot of changes inside the tank because nobody can see in there. I guess it shouldn't surprise me as it seems every company is building a cheaper version for those Box stores.

Especially on the Net, I have learned a lot about "best" vs. "works just fine." That's why I never ask questions about what is "the best." The tank I'm getting has a 5 year warranty, and I did my due diligence and it has good comments about it from DIYers elsewhere. If I get 5-10 years out of it, great. We'll see. Point is, I have upgraded to diaphragm from bladder and to 5 years warranty from 1. I also have a tank serviced from a local storefront if there are problems. All tanks need to be replaced eventually. As a former pro mechanic who has a BIL who owns a very large HVAC company, I respect pros' opinions but I know that given free choice pros go for top of the line every time. It's less headaches from the pro perspective but at times is overkill for the app. Not everyone wants to spend $800 when $400 will do the job.

Again, I do thank you all for your comments, as I wanted to be absolutely certain there isn't anything in my existing system that could be causing these bladder failures. I had figured that as long as I was at 40-60 on the dial, the bags should not be blowing. You have confirmed that for me. Time to try a new design. Thanks again.

Valveman, on the CSV that is essentially what I was doing with the pressure regulator in the supply line set at 50 psi working pressure and pump cut in/out set at 50-70 psi. Removing that regulator is the only real change to the system made at tank replacement and I am considering putting it back in as a safeguard, in case its removal is why the tanks failed. Can't see why that would be the case, though. I ran a shallow jet pump with 20 gallon tank just fine for years with no regulator in the supply line.

 

[Valveman]

Sorry but you still do not understand the CSV. A pressure regulator will maintain steady pressure to the house, while the pump is cycling itself and the tank to death, between 40 and 60, over and over and over.

Yes the CSV will maintain a constant pressure like a pressure regulator, but the CSV is installed prior to the pressure tank, not after the pressure tank. So not only does the CSV hold constant pressure on the house, but it eliminates all the cycling while you are using water. The water goes right past the pressure tank, straight to the house at the correct rate and pressure, with no pump cycling. So even a little 4.5 gallon size tank is plenty big enough for a house.

Basically, if you think you now have a tank that can survive 5 years of normal cycling, it would last 20 years with the limited amount of cycling from the CSV control. I have seen the CSV make bag tanks last 10 times longer than I thought they should have.

Not everybody wants to spend money on a new pressure tank, even if they last 5 years, when they could have gotten 20 years from the same tank by eliminating most of the cycling.

You can play with this graphic to see how it works. Scroll down you can see both pump systems at the same time.
http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/simple/home.php

 

[Craigpump]

We routinely see WX series tanks over 18 yrs old. That's proof enough for me.

 

[Valveman]

I’ve got one working that I installed in 1982. It is a weekend place, very lightly used, and it has had a CSV on it for more than half that time. But still 31 years? The problem is, I just don’t think anything is still made the way it used to be. You would be surprised how closely they can engineer in a certain life cycle to just about anything.

 

[Craigpump]

Everything is based on planned obsolescence.

We pulled a 1/2-10 3w Lancaster pump yesterday that was installed in 1981, what do you suppose the chances of the Franklin lasting that long are?

 

[Valveman]

I'll bet the old motor was twice as long and twice as heavy as the new motors.

 

[Guy Winohradsky]

There could be another reason for air in the lines, pump sucking air. I updated my system from 2 old 20 gallon tanks to one 85 a little over two years ago. My well is 4 inch 105 ft. deep with water 15 to 20 ft from surface and deep well pump 40 ft down. Apparently with the increased draw per cycle it was drawing the water level below the pump inlet. The well and pump were over 15 years old, so I had it flushed and a new pump installed 60 feet down. Air problem fixed. Until recently. The bladder in my tank failed. No air in lines, but short cycling, and when I tried to drain the tank to change it, it still had maybe 40 gallons that would not drain until I removed the bottom.

 

[Yi Ma]

There is a big difference between the Water Worker and the WX series. The Water Worker and the WP series contractor tanks do not have the same heavy gauge diaphram as the WX series. The new WX diaphram is rated for 150 psi vs 100psi for the Water Worker and WP series. We have replaced more Water Worker and WP series tanks than I care to think about.

If it were me, I would cancel that order and get the WX series. I think you will be happier in the long run and so will your pump.

This is interesting information. When you say WX, do you mean "Amtrol Well-X-Trol"? I have heard that the Amtrol tanks are good. Also, I wrote an article about this subject on my blog--I wonder if you would be willing to review whether it is accurate or not. It is at http://www.reviewswise.com/plumbing/well-pressure-tank/

 

[Valveman]

This is interesting information. When you say WX, do you mean "Amtrol Well-X-Trol"? I have heard that the Amtrol tanks are good. Also, I wrote an article about this subject on my blog--I wonder if you would be willing to review whether it is accurate or not. It is at http://www.reviewswise.com/plumbing/well-pressure-tank/

"Well Pressure Tanks store water from your well and reduce wear on your pump by avoiding the necessity of your pump switching on and off constantly as people in your house use sinks, showers etc. Also well pressure tanks help to keep the water pressure constant in between operations of your pump. If you don’t have a good well pressure tank and you are having a shower, you may well feel the temperature of the water suddenly increase and burn you if someone flushes the toilet! This is due to the water pressure of the cold water supply dropping when someone else uses cold water."

Well I will offer a couple of corrections. First a pressure tank does not "avoid the necessity of your pump switching on and off constantly as people in the house use water". Switching on and off constantly is what a pressure tank CAUSES the pump to do. The larger the pressure tank, the less if cycles on and off, but it still continues to cycle constantly while water is being used. So well pressure tanks do not keep the pressure constant. The pressure is constantly changing from 40 to 60 while you are using water. Then even if you have a good pressure tank, you will still feel the temperature in the shower suddenly increase and decrease as the pressure constantly changes from 40 to 60 and 60 to 40 over and over.

A Cycle Stop Valve set at 50 PSI would keep the pressure at a constant 50 while water is being used. This keeps the pressure steady at 50 for as long as you are in the shower or using water anywhere, which eliminates the sudden changes in pressure and temperature when someone flushes a toilet or uses water elsewhere. But then you would only need a 4.5 gallon size pressure tank, as the CSV makes the water go right past the pressure tank directly to the shower or faucets, which makes a large tank completely unnecessary.

"The larger your tank, the better, in terms of minimizing on-off cycling of your pump."

If using a larger tank is better in terms of minimizing on/off cycles, and it is, then using a CSV to completely eliminate on/off cycling is even better.

"A larger tank also will cut your electricity bill, as there is a current surge each time the pump is turned on and reaches operating speed."

It only takes a regular pump a fraction of a second to get to operating speed. So you could start a pump 300 times per day and you would not be able to see a difference in the electric bill from a pump that started 20 times a day using a larger tank. But there is a slight increase in energy consumption for pumps that cycle on and off a lot. That being said, a CSV will completely eliminate cycling when water is being used for long periods of time. So using a CSV and small tank to keep the pump running constantly would use less starting energy than a system with any size pressure tank that continues to cycle on and off.

I still use 86 gallon WX302 pressure tanks, but only to run large pump systems like in post #7 where with a CSV it supplies water to a city with 20,000 people. Big pressure tanks for use in single houses have become obsolete, as there are now much better ways to eliminate, not just reduce the pump cycling.

 

[Valveman]

I found this video interesting. http://residential.goulds.com/constant-pressure/

While it is absolutely false about the VFD system being easier on the pump and stopping water hammer, it was accurate about all the problems of the old style pressure tank only "traditional systems". Pump manufacturers know all about the problems associated with the old pressure tank only systems. They will use that information to try and get you to install one of their VFD systems, as they are much more profitable for them. But anything that is more profitable for the manufacturer, means it cost all the rest of us a bunch of extra money.