Programming advice for Fleck 7000SXT

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G Lab

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Hello, everybody. I have a Fleck 7000SXT and I was wondering if I could get some expert advise on the programming to get the best salt efficiency. I received the valve pre-programmed but I believe it's programmed incorrectly since our water still felt a little hard. Pre-programmed settings: DF = GAL, VT = dF2b, CT = Fd, C = 64, H = 22, RS = RC, RC = 150, DO = 14, RT = 2:00, B1 = 10, BD = 60, B2 = 10, RR = 10, BF = 16, FM = t1.2

Below are information to get you started:
- Sticker behind valve:
- BLFC = 0.125 gpm (edited, it was .0125 before)
- DLFC = - (not provided)
- Injector = 00 (NOTE: Injector is Red #0, I checked)
- Capacity = 64K gain
- Resin = 2 cu ft
- Resin tank = 12"x48"
- Brine tank = 18" x 33" (round)
- # users = 3
= Hardness = 22 (water from aquifer, water report didn't mention iron, I padded H by +4)

Thanks in advance and please let me know if you need more information.
 
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Reach4

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You should get a water test including iron and Mn. Below is a first guess...

Your BF is low, currently using only 3 pounds of salt per cubic ft. Your C is too high. Your BD is a bit low. I presumed your 22 hardness number is OK.

System info (not programmed)
salt lb/cuft : 6 ; A choice ( efficiency vs capacity)
BLFC : 0.125 ; Brine Refill rate GPM
cubic ft resin : 2.0 ; Same as (nominal grains/32,000)
Raw hardness : 22.0 ; including iron etc
Estimated gal/day : 150.0 ; 60 gal per person typical calc
Estimated days each regen : 11.0 ; presuming days each use reserve capacity

Fleck 7000SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = dF2b ; Downflw/Upflw, Double Backwash dFFF=brine first
CT = Fd ; Meter Delayed regen trigger
C = 40.0 ; capacity in 1000 grains
H = 22 ; Hardness grains after compensation (unknown iron)
RS = cr ; Cr = base reserve on recent experience (your way is OK, but then increase RC to 180)
CR = 0 ; 0 is default (leave it)
DO = 14 ; Day Override (typ 28 if no iron/Mn) Maybe should be 7??
RT = 2:00 ; Regen time (default 2 AM)
B1 = 8 ; Backwash 1 (minutes)
Bd = 80 ; Brine draw minutes (#0 red injector)
B2 = 5 ; Backwash 2 (minutes)
RR = 5 ; Rapid Rinse minutes
BF = 32 ; Brine fill minutes
FM = t1.2 (usual) ; t1.2 is default flow meter
 

ditttohead

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It is important to understand that even 1/2 grain hardness (8 ppm) can start to feel "less than soft".

When you ask about having the "best" salt efficiency are you willing to have slightly harder water. As with everything in life, nothing is free.
Higher efficiency equals lower water quality. Ultra high efficiency settings can lead to excessive "hardness leakage". High salting will lead to less leakage but considerable salt waste.

Personally, (and please no need to get into a debate about this, thus the term "personally") I prefer 8-9 pounds of salt per cubic foot in my water conditions. It gives an excellent balance of acceptable efficiency and excellent water quality.

So are you willing to have higher "leakage" or do you want to program it for reasonable efficiency and reasonable water quality?
 

G Lab

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Reach4 and dittohead, thank you for taking the interest of answering my request for advice.

Reach4, my valve/tank setup is for 64K grains capacity. I have 3.5 bathrooms and even though there are only 3 users, once in a while I have visitors. That is why C is set to 64. However, I understand why you recommended C=40, due to 3 users. What would you recommend for 8 users? Or, better yet, you would be able to share your formula? So, I can help myself in the future. Thanks in advance.

dittohea, for your 8-9 lbs/cu ft salt dosage. I'm willing to try the setting for "reasonable efficiency and reasonable water quality". What is your recommendation for 3 and 8 users, respectfully? Thanks in advance.

Additionally, I have seen a lot of discussions about salt dosage. I'm new to the water softener world, and I would be thankful if anyone can give me some advise on where (website) I can go to educate myself. Or, better yet, if someone can educate me by posting your thoughts about salt dosage :)
 
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ditttohead

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It is simple. The 32K per CF setting is based on a massive and highly inefficient salt dose. This is never used except for polishing softeners used in industrial applications and it is usually feed with ro or softened water. This setting is used when less than 2-3 ppm of hardness is required.

18# per cf = 32K per CF or 1777 grains removal per pounds of salt

By cutting the salt in more than half we can achieve a much higher efficiency without sacrificing any significant water quality (residential water quality, steam boiler, EDI feeds etc. will vary)

8 pounds per cf = 24K grains per cf or 3000 grains removal per cf.

As you can see, you nearly double the efficiency by properly setting the unit.

Lower salt doses are possible. Much below 6 pounds per cf tends to create some hardness leakage.

My personal preferred setting is as follows.

DF = Gal ; Units
VT = dF2b
CT = Fd ; Meter Delayed regen trigger
C = 48.0 ; capacity in 1000 grains
H = 25 ; Hardness grains after compensation (unknown iron)
RS = cr
DO = 28 assuming you don't have iron (municipal supply)
RT = 2:00 ; Regen time (default 2 AM)
B1 = 6 ; Backwash 1 (minutes)
Bd = 80 ; Brine draw minutes (#0 red injector)
B2 = 3 ; Backwash 2 (minutes)
RR = 5 ; Rapid Rinse minutes
BF = 42 ; Brine fill minutes
FM = t1.2 (usual) ; t1.2 is default flow meter

This will give you very good efficiency and very good water quality.
 

Reach4

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Reach4, my valve/tank setup is for 64K grains capacity. I have 3.5 bathrooms and even though there are only 3 users, once in a while I have visitors. That is why C is set to 64. However, I understand why you recommended C=40, due to 3 users. What would you recommend for 8 users? Or, better yet, you would be able to share your formula? So, I can help myself in the future.
It is not my formula, but one that I have embraced. See https://terrylove.com/forums/index....ener-settings-salt-brine-grid-question.49333/ #20, and click on the graphs.

The setup method using RS = cr does not pay attention to the number of people. The reserve is computed by the 7000 based on recent (previous 5 days I am thinking) use patterns. The only reason the number of people came into play was to estimate how often the softener would regenerate. The reserve in gallons method is good too. For example, suppose your use was sporadic like a weekend getaway. Then RS = RC, RC = 150, would maybe be better. RC is in gallons, and figure 60 gallons per person typically. 150 would be for 3 people who used less water than par.

C would not change. The use of C=40, which is 20000 grains per cubic ft) has been discussed many many times. If you still have questions after reading the cited #20, we could find dozens [understatement] more. If you made no other change, you could set C=25.6 for your current 3 pounds of salt per cubic ft of resin. That would give minimum salt use, but that lean salt use the kind of thing Ditttohead is suggesting against.

If you were not getting hardness before you regen now, then we would have surmised that your BLFC is not 0.125 even if the sticker said that. With you getting a lot of hardness, that goes along with the sticker being correct.
 

G Lab

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Reach4, I checked my BLFC. Here are the numbers/letter: 123 F 49, photo attached. What do you think? Is the "sticker" BLFC=0.125 correct?

As for the charts, trying to understand them makes my head spin :) Would you be able to explain how you came up with 6 lb/cu ft using the charts?

Lastly, are you suggesting I try C=25.6, instead of 40? To get 3 lbs/cu ft of salt dosage instead of 6 lbs/cu ft? If I do this, will some of the settings will change too?
 

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Reach4

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Reach4, I checked my BLFC. Here are the numbers/letter: 123 F 49, photo attached. What do you think? Is the "sticker" BLFC=0.125 correct?
Yes.

As for the charts, trying to understand them makes my head spin :) Would you be able to explain how you came up with 6 lb/cu ft using the charts?
I did not come up with it, but somebody did way back...
However that graph is a little more optimistic at what 6 pounds can do.. I think the 20000 grains number builds in some margin and potential degradation of the resin. So from the markups, the graph seems to say about 24000 grains... with what I call margin, that was dropped to 20000, which is a commonly used number.

Now if you want to press it some, I suggest you test your softened water as it is almost time to regen. If you see 0 grains, you could try raising your C or lowering your H. It is the C to H ratio that determines how many gallons that softener expects to be able to soften before regeneration. By tuning through testing, you could maximize things.
img_2.png


The attached graph is a table snipped from Gary Slusser's old page for a 2 cuft softner for somebody using 240 gallons per day. Note the 6 or 8 cuft are good compromise settings giving good salt efficiency and good softening too.
 

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G Lab

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dittohead, the 22 ppm I mentioned above is already padded to compensate of iron. I hope by this week, I can get some answer from the water company about hardness and iron in the water. If I use H=22, will the same settings still applies? Or, will they change?

I'm not discounting iron in water since the county water comes from an aquafer. As for DO, should it be lowered? If the DO is lowered, will the other settings change too?
 

G Lab

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Reach4, thanks for explaining the chart to me. Now, I'm starting to understand. Is 20000 grains used to come up with the setting values you recommended above?
 

ditttohead

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The chart is a guideline. It does not, not can it take into consideration all the potential variables involved in a water system design. Some losses have be assumed.

As to 3 pounds... don't do it. The water quality is typically not well liked even though the chart may show only a certain amount of leakage, that chart is based on laboratory conditions. The resin manufacturers put out lab results and leave the application results to those of us in the industry that design the units. The system will also regenerate much more frequently causing the system to use a lot more water.

The chart shows a curve that starts to flatten out past 8pounds, and dramatically past 10 pounds.

As to the cr setting, this is a variable reserve. Just use it. It is very accurate and reliable in the vast majority of applications. While the formula may get tweaked from software version to software version, the general principals remain the same. Assume the reserve will initially take off 1/3 of the total capacity when the system starts. The reserve can vary no more than 10% per day. This will allow for intermittent high water usage patterns ie: filling a Jaccuzzi. Before the 10% max change was instituted a decade ago, filling a spa could result in the system assuming your daily usage was a few thousand gallons and then it would initiate a regeneration daily for the next month while it slowly backed down... this is why the formulas are tweaked sometimes, as algorithms and ideas change, so do the reserve formulas. Over the past 10 years, they have all come pretty close to as efficient as they can get. Now they are doing 7 day algorithms, allowing for repeated high use days ie: the weekend laundry... this can allow the system to initiate a regeneration a day early or wait an extra day based on the previous past 6 weeks...

Now it is time to do some testing. Simply watch the gallons on the unit. When it is nearing the regeneration day, test the water. If the gallons do not come close to the calculations, your resin bed may be exhausted, low etc. This is normal. Remove the valve and inspect the resin bed level. Missing resin, fouled resin, worn resin etc can all lead to the symptoms you are describing.

Your BLFC is .125
 
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Reach4

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I can get some answer from the water company about hardness and iron in the water.
If you have chlorinated water, the iron is gone by the time it gets to you.

Is 20000 grains used to come up with the setting values you recommended above?
Yes. 2o.0 kgrains times 2 cubic ft =40.0.

There is more than one good combination, but your current settings are very much not adequate.
 

Bannerman

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G Lab,

It can become confusing when receiving feedback from multiple people.

As your water source is municipal, it will have been chlorinated. Chlorine will convert any Ferrous iron (clear iron that a softener can remove) that may have been in the water initially, to Ferric iron which your softener will not be removing and does not need to be programmed for. As such, the 'H' setting can be reduced to the hardness amount as identified with your Hach 5B test kit, plus add 2 additional grains to allow for any hardness variance in the water supply.

The programmed capacities and salt doses specified above, are based on the total resin capacity (64K grains) being first restored. Your initial settings were incorrect as too little salt brine was produced to regenerate too much programmed capacity (C=64). As your softener's total capacity had been exhausted, you now need to regenerate 1X using 36 lbs of salt (18 lbs/cuft).

Assuming you are using Ditttohead's recommendations, he specified BF = 42 minutes. That 42 X 0.125 BLFC = 5.25 gallons entering the brine tank. Each 1 gallon will dissolve 3 lbs of salt so Ditttohead's recommended salt dose is then 15.75 lbs to restore 48,000 grains capacity ('C' setting). Because you need 36 lbs dissolved for an initial regeneration, 12 gallons total will be needed in the brine tank so 12 - 5.25 (gallons assumed already in the brine tank) = 6.75 gallons which you could add using a bucket. Once the additional water is added, wait at least 2 hours for additional salt to dissolve before initiating a manual regeneration cycle. The manual regeneration could be initiated before departing for bed.

If your brine tank can't hold 12 gallons of water, you can then use 1/2 the salt dose (ie: 6 gallons =18 lbs salt) in 2 manual regeneration cycles performed back to back with no water use in between.

The 'C' setting programmed, is based upon the chosen salt dose, not the number of people.

The total amount of water softening capacity (gallons) is calculated by the controller based upon the softener's capacity setting ('C' grains) and the hardness amount ('H' grains per gallon) which you program. As your Fleck valve has a water consumption meter, it keeps track of the water used and then initiates a regeneration cycle automatically once the capacity remaining is less than 1 day usage. Additional people will use more water so regeneration will therefore occur more frequently than when there is fewer people.
 
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G Lab

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Hello everybody, sorry for the delayed response. I was under weather for a few days.

Reach4, I tried your recommendation. So far so good.

Dittohead, I'll be testing your recommendation tonight.

Bannerman, thanks for showing how settings were calculated. This info will come in handy in the future.
 

ditttohead

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FYI, if you set the system to cr, it is likely your meter will count "up" for a few days as it builds an algorithm in the software. This is normal for the first couple of weeks while it learns your water usage.
 

G Lab

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If you see 0 grains, you could try raising your C or lowering your H. It is the C to H ratio that determines how many gallons that softener expects to be able to soften before regeneration. By tuning through testing, you could maximize things.

Reach4, you mentioned to check for grains. Can I use a TDS meter to check for hardness?
 
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Reach4

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Reach4, you mentioned to check for grains. Can I use a TDS meter to check for hardness?
No. Softeners do not have much effect on TDS, even though the output water is 0 grains.
 
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