Professional opinions on this plumbing job, please.

[Kimster]

iminaquagmire,

Thanks for your thoughts on this. I think I'll be redoing the whole thing. I don't want to not pay them at all because in and of itself, the Pex job isn't wrong, it just isn't optimal and not what I had wanted. On the other hand, the drain is just plain wrong. I will be taking pictures of everything and writing it up for them and including a cheque that I think would be fair for the work that was done right.

As far as quotes and due diligence, you have no idea how much I did. I got two other quotes and this was middle of the road. The person who owns this company is my mother's neighbor who has done a lot of work for her. He is listed with the BBB and city hall and has a clean record and neither he nor the company have been in any litigation according to public records. I also told them the job was going to be inspected and had to pass code. What more could I have done?

If the boss had actually come that day like he was supposed to, I don't think things would have gone this way, and sadly, he didn't offer to fix these problems himself. He wanted to send the same guys back and I wasn't going to let them do any more work. I asked if he had anyone more experienced and he said these guys had done all kinds of commercial and residential work and their level of experience should have been fine for this job. That may be true but this job sure didn't turn out OK.

As it stands now, I'm having another plumber (a trusted one that won't do work outside his day job or I would have hired him in a second) come out to just assess what has been done OK to make sure I haven't missed something. After that, I'll determine just how much I'll pay.

I'm really glad I have a second bathroom.

 

[Nukeman]

What about the Ferncos? Shouldn't those be shielded?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Kimster]

Yeah, see, I was wondering about that, too. I went to the Fernco website to see what each type is spec'd for and the shielded kind said it was for joining pipes of different sizes. The rubber ones just said for joining no-hub CI to pipes of other materials. That's why I let it go, but if anyone thinks they should be shielded, let me know. I want a tight seal so no gases leak out and below the sink, so no gases or water leaks out.

 

[Kimster]

Forgot to ask...

I just read another thread about a lead closet bend and realized I didn't ask about the method used to replace mine.

The "plumbers" cut off the lead bend before the piece that goes into the hub (there's a bell shaped CI -- or is that brass -- piece that goes from the lead to the hub) and hammered the lead a bit. Then, they put on a 3 to 4 Fernco. Then, they glued a 3" pipe to a 90 to a vertical 3" pipe and inserted the horizontal part into the 4 to 3 Fernco and, I'm assuming, into the leftover lead piece.

Is this wrong?

 

[Jadnashua]

I'm assuming that the Fernco piece is all rubber except for the hose clamps? If so, then no, it is not correct. You are required to use a reinforced banded coupling above ground, the all rubber ones are only approved for under ground where the pipe ends can be properly supported by the backfill to prevent misalignment. Now, will it work? Probably. The CI hub is not likely to move, and the other end is screwed to the floor, so it won't move, but that doesn't make it right. Expedient, yes, right, no.

 

[Kimster]

Yep, it's all rubber except the clamps. Thing is, I could have done it this way myself. I was looking for the correct way and I was expecting it to be done like Terry had illustrated with the rubber donut in the hub. I had spoken to the head guy when he came over and I asked him about the rubber donut and he said that's what they use, but here I am with another half-a**ed job thanks to his employees and his absence the day they were here.

 

[hj]

The cinch rings I use "wrap over" the end of the tubing so they are automatically positioned at the proper spot on the fitting. I have not seen that type where you can put them anywhere you want to.

 

[MACPLUMB]

I think you got half assed work by half ass plumber want to be's

 

[MACPLUMB]

Talk to the owner direct and tell him you will be willing to pay the full invoice if he is willing to pay you back for what it cost to have a real plumber come out and correct the problems and mistakes that have been noted above see if he personal will make corrections to code and what you asked for !

 

[Ian Gills]

I'm not surprised.

Most licensed plumbers I call round try to use the all rubber Ferncos instead of the banded couplings when they make repairs to my above-ground drains, if left unattended and unsupervised.

I still have one on my tub/shower drain used by the plumber that replaced sections of that.

I now keep a stash of my own banded couplings, as well as other components, to hand to the licensed plumbers as they work, just in case.

The last one went on a drain that was broken while the plumber was snaking it.

I don't like to have to supply parts, but as a homeowner it's good to know the job is done right even if I do have to keep stocks at home for the pros.

I guess lots of them just don't know or, more than likely, don't have them in the van.

But we can't expect them to be code inspectors can we?


The plumbing job on my tub drain done by a local, trusted firm using his parts ....



and a selection of the parts I now keep because of it...



The last drain I had fixed by a plumber, using my parts this time...

 

[Kimster]

Wow, thanks for all your replies!

I didn't really know why you needed shielded couplers but when snaking was mentioned, it all made sense. They could go right through the rubber. They also used a rubber Fernco to join ABS to steel shower drain pipe and on the main stack to seal the CI to ABS.

I guess I'll have to shop for all the parts I want used if I call another plumber for this.

MACPLUMB777, I still haven't paid a dime and judging by everything I'm learning, you can bet I will be dinging him for all the repairs required to get it all up to code. Those guys will no be setting foot into this house ever again. When I did talk to him, he offered to send the same guys back and I asked if he had any more experienced guys. He didn't even offer to come back himself and make it right. So, let's see where my laundry list is at:

- Shielded Ferncos for the toilet, shower and main stack where we cut out the CI and joined ABS
- soldered caps rather than Sharkbites on the hot and cold in the basement
- caps on the Pex in the bathroom rather than valves on everything (can't install drywall neatly)
- lav drain not properly sloped to tee on main stack
- hot and cold for lav not at proper sink diagram specs
- shower valve not installed
- stud needs repair where they cut out for shower valve they couldn't install (much too high)
- laundry lines need to be on separate shutoff
- no metal plates covering stud notches
- huge mess left for me on two floors
- lent them sawzall blade because theirs was junk
- rented snap cutter for CI stack
- cut out access hole for toilet bend repair

Aaand, if I want to get really picky, I'd charge them for the redo of the Pex because it isn't an ideal job. Not incorrect, just not ideal.

I think they're going to end up owing me.

Let me ask one more question:

They cut the old tub drain (steel) and it was quite clogged with crud so that the opening for water to run down is about one inch wide by 2 inches high (you could barely look through it). Should they have spun out the entire drain to the hub on the stack or is this going to be OK with the new shower. They coupled 1 1/2 ABS to this but there's obviously going to be a bottleneck. They said that my pipe was actually in good shape compare to others they've seen and not that clogged. I'm thinking it's not a good thing and should be completely converted to ABS to the hub.

 

[MACPLUMB]

On the shower drain you have two options
#1 leave it like it is and plan on a experienced drain cleaning professional snaking out all
your drains when you have everthing complete with flowing water !

#2 change out as much as possible while you have the access to it because abs pipe does not get a buildup in the drains like that !

The thing about the way closet bend is done that is a place just waiting for paper and
waste to hang up !
Plumbing drain 101 says never have any ridges or rough edges in the way of flow !

Sharkbite caps are ok for stub outs because they are easy to remove when you are setting the finished fixtures angle stop valves !

 

[Ballvalve]

The cinch rings I use "wrap over" the end of the tubing so they are automatically positioned at the proper spot on the fitting. I have not seen that type where you can put them anywhere you want to.

Those are the only clamp rings I have found from PEX suppliers, and thats why in a previous post I thought 2 would be better on a fitting. Using 2 gets all the barbs.

 

[Kimster]

MacPlumb,

I would have been happy if they left SharkBites on the ends of the Pex stub-outs in the bathroom. No, they left them on where we cut off the lines that ran over the electrical panel, so now I have at least one potential leak site that is way too close to the box for comfort.

I'll have to get that closet bend checked out, too. I'm not sure that anything would get hung up because I think the ABS is far enough into the CI bell that it bypasses any edges but I thought some sludge might wind up dripping back and sitting between the old lead and the Fernco (under the ABS) because there is no rubber seal in the bell to make it liquid-tight.

Grrrrr.

 

[Dlarrivee]

Interesting that they didn't use properly anchored copper stub outs for the shut-offs... UV is hard on PEX.

Are these guys supposed to be professional plumbers?

 

[Kimster]

dlarrive,

The gentleman that came to see me the first couple of times for the quote and to cap the lines is a journeyman of what level, I don't know. But rather than coming to do the job as he said he would, he sent two second-year apprentices. I asked them what their levels were. I figured this work would have been within their scope and that the boss was going to come and inspect the job. That didn't happen. Next time, I will insist that the actual journeyman do the job or they can forget about the work.

 

[Ballvalve]

You can have a jouneyman idiot and a 1 year apprentice that is a genius plumber. Titles and unions especially, mean nothing, its the result that counts. You can only get that from careful research of past customers of theirs.

"Judge a man by his works, not his title" and old and worthy adage.

 

[Kimster]

Good point, ballValve. It's difficult to judge past work other than asking past clients how it went. He came well-recommended but I couldn't check on what he had done. And, yes, if there's an apprentice that actually cares about his work, it wouldn't matter if he didn't have a full ticket yet.

Sometimes I think you also need a bit of luck on your side.

 

[Ian Gills]

Sometimes you just need to Do It Yourself.

That's whay I started.

Dodgy work from licensed contractors when I first came here.

They should all be arrested.

 

[Kimster]

Arrested would be nice, but these guys got the next best thing. Nothing. No $$$ from me and they won't get any until I tally up all the costs of correcting their mistakes.