Problem with water spots on chrome fixtures

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I hear what you are saying.
But at this point in my quest, I was trying anything to get a better idea of what is causing the spots/stains.



There is an old saying... "the solution to pollution is dilution". What you've done is the reverse. By evaporating off the water, it skews the numbers. The numbers are more meaningful in the context of the original volume of water.
 

LLigetfa

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Ja, but the largest number by far is sodium and we know that is the product of ion exchange. The harder the water, the more sodium. Granted, while sodium leaves water spots, they do clean up easily. I hear silica is tough to clean off.
 

ForkWheelDrive

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Mr Moore, you sound like you're at the same place I am. My water quality is very similar to yours and I've done the evaporation experiment many times. I never got the dried residue tested itself, I really just use it as a visual indication of what the water will leave on the fixtures. I've come to the conclusion that the high TDS (mostly sodium after the softener) leaves the residue and the silica is what makes it difficult to clean off.

I will say I've had some luck with tuning my softener better. The installer set it 'high' to combat the build-up issues thinking it was hardness (even though the treated water was testing soft). I measured our actual weekly usage and tried a conservative hardness value to get a capacity / brine draw time of 3-4 minutes. This is down from 8 minutes as was previously set. I am using much less salt and the evaporation test yields a slightly less-white appearance. There is still residue but it's a little more clear. Hach 5B still shows it at 0 gpg.

I have a shallow well (60' I think) so I'm sure this contributes to my issues. I am considering a whole-house RO at this point. I've learned that other homes in my area are running them and they seem to be becoming the new standard as the prices come down.
 

ditttohead

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Whole house RO can be a good thing when done properly and with the proper understanding of the maintenance costs involved. Whole house RO used to be considered extravagant, but in the past few years as te technology has progressed it has become more mainstream. Their are some code issues that many companies have been ignoring, and many designs are downright bad. I supply a dozen companies that make whole house RO designs, and most of them are poorly designed, or have too many compromises. The ones that are designed properly are very expensive. I don't want to clog up the post with a long discussion on whole house RO, maybe in a few months when I have time, but please feel free to PM me if you want more information or assistance.
 

Gary Slusser

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I see I previously mentioned hot water hardness but didn't specifically say to test the hot water for hardness. If there is hardness in the hot water, it most likely is due to hard water scale in the water heater and/or hot side plumbing.

Another thing I should have mentioned is to test the softened water for hardness about the same time of day every day starting the day after a regeneration until the day after the next regeneration. That's the only way to know the softener is working constantly. Also, you can run two or three fixtures for a few minutes and then at the fixture closest to the softener, take a sample before shutting the water off and test it for hardness. That will tell you if you are exceeding the SFR of the softener. I suggest doing that a couple days after the last regeneration. Maybe every day between regenerations.

Softening adds 7.85 mg/l of sodium per gpg of compensated hardness in the raw water IF you use regular water softener salt (sodium chloride). I don't recall how much potassium if using potassium chloride.

The guy with the acid neutralizer filter.... you have to program the softener to deal with the added hardness those filters add to the raw water hardness. I suggest 5-10 gpg depending on how low the pH is and IIRC yours was 5.9? I'd add 10 gpg for that. You may also want to add a pH test to the hardness tests I mentioned.
 
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Update from OP

A few months back I had another local water treatment company come out to investigate the staining/spotting issue I have been having.
They inspected my softener unit. They said the settings were correct and it seemed to be running correctly.
They suggested a polyphosphate feeder, due to the silica levels in the water.
They installed it (Siliphos polyphosphate pellets) into one of my big blue housings.

I have given it a few months for the polyphosphate to get through the systems and coat the pipes, fixtures, etc.

Unfortunately, it has not fixed the problem.

I am still getting spotting on the chrome fixtures and staining build-up on the shower tile and in the sinks. The parts of the shower wall tile that are directly under the showerhead seem to be getting a slight haze to it. I've tried various products to remove the hazing. The only thing that seemed to work was Bar Keepers friend with a non-scratch scrubbing pad. I used the same to remove the build-up in the sink.

I even switched to the Morton Solar Salt crystals from the Morton System Saver Pellets to see if that made a difference....

Hopefully, by bumping this thread to the top, maybe some new eyes will have some other suggestions.

Thank you.
mm
 

ditttohead

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No real change other than doing a thorough cleaning and coating everything with Rain-X every month, not a solution but it should help. Whole house RO to lessen the silica, costly but effective. Polyphosphate feeders usually reduce the problem they do not eliminate it. Silica is a tough problem to effectively deal with.
 
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No real change other than doing a thorough cleaning and coating everything with Rain-X every month, not a solution but it should help. Whole house RO to lessen the silica, costly but effective. Polyphosphate feeders usually reduce the problem they do not eliminate it. Silica is a tough problem to effectively deal with.

Hey dittohead.....
Thanks for the reply.

A few thoughts:
1. The thing that frustrates me is I'm still not 100% sure if the issue is silica. Yes, there is silica in my water (16 mg/L). But, I'm not sure if that is the problem causing my spotting/staining/scaling. Not one water treatment specialist has said silica is definitely the problem. The typical theory is not sure what it could be otherwise, so it must be silica. It is only through problem elimination that we tried the Siliphos. I guess what I am saying is that I haven't definitively determined the exact cause of the staining/scaling. So, I wonder if we are missing something else that could be the cause...

2. Whole-house RO was mentioned by my most recent water treatment specialist. But, he, like you, also said it was expensive, high-maintenance, etc. He basically said it was an absolute last resort.

3. What about the option of drilling a new well? I wonder what the probability of getting the same water would be? I realize this would be an expensive option as well....but not sure if it would be worth it.

4. I know all of the water specialists that have come out have said it seems that the softener is running properly.....It does soften the water. And, I have tested it at various times to see if there is any leakage of hard/raw water....there doesn't seem to be any.
But, I wonder if trying a new softener, installed by a pro, is worth a try?
What about Kinetico? I don't know much about the product, so I wonder if a Kinetico system could help....

Thanks.
mm
 

ditttohead

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Soft water is soft water. No need to replace it. If the spots are easily removed with Lime Away, then it is hard water build up. Hardness scale is easily cleaned with an acid. Silica is not easily removed except through physical cleaning. Acids and bases don't seem to work. And... no water treatment guy will tell you that Silica is "definitely" the problem since there are many other factors in water that are beyond standard test methods. Reducing the problems is the best that can be done sometimes. Even RO and DI have difficulties with silica removal. We do some tricks to help, but it is always a problem.
A new well... you could try it if you have a ton of money burning a hole in your pocket. you could get worse water, not sure I would go that route.
Spend the time to thoroughly clean everything then coat it with Rain-X.
 
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Soft water is soft water. No need to replace it. If the spots are easily removed with Lime Away, then it is hard water build up. Hardness scale is easily cleaned with an acid. Silica is not easily removed except through physical cleaning. Acids and bases don't seem to work. And... no water treatment guy will tell you that Silica is "definitely" the problem since there are many other factors in water that are beyond standard test methods. Reducing the problems is the best that can be done sometimes. Even RO and DI have difficulties with silica removal. We do some tricks to help, but it is always a problem.
A new well... you could try it if you have a ton of money burning a hole in your pocket. you could get worse water, not sure I would go that route.
Spend the time to thoroughly clean everything then coat it with Rain-X.


I know it seems silly to consider drilling a new well, but the prospect of having 2 new bathrooms (and a future kitchen renovation) ruined by my well water is not a pretty thought.... I think I have to consider all options at this point.

I'm so frustrated......ugh....

Thank you for your help dittohead....I appreciate it.

mm
 

ditttohead

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Have you checked with neighbors to see if their water is different? If they are close to you and their water is significantly different/better, you may have good results from a new well. Then again, there is always the chance it could be worse.
 
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Have you checked with neighbors to see if their water is different? If they are close to you and their water is significantly different/better, you may have good results from a new well. Then again, there is always the chance it could be worse.

I was just discussing the same thing with my wife the other day....
I am going to ask around to see if anyone else has any water issues.
I guess I should try to find out how deep my well is and compare that to others...
 

Bannerman

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Even if your neighbor has higher quality water than you do, that doesn't mean that you will hit the same vein if you did drill a new well.

If it turns-out that a neighbor's water is higher quality, what are the chances that you can share his well even if it means a larger pump, storage tank etc? This assumes his well can deliver enough capacity. Of course, that would also mean trenching a water line to your place.

If the neighbor's water is superior, at least you are assured of better quality water instead of taking a gamble on a new well.
 

ditttohead

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Excellent idea. Compensate him for the electricity and share the maintenance cost. It would probably be far cheaper than drilling a new well.
 

PaulOregon

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I've been watching this thread for a while now as I try to figure out why the Grohe chrome shower fixtures I just installed in 2014 had a nasty white residue that I could not remove with vinegar or other suggested cleaners. I took a sample of my water to Pixis Labs here in Portland and found out that I have 57mg/L of Silica (and 224 mg/L of TDS). I looked into RO systems to remove the silica from my softened water but the cost was way too high. (One shop bid $15,000 and required a 400 gal holding tank.) Apparently 57 mg/L is considered "very annoying" when it comes to silica.

Anyway, I found this stuff online called A-Maze water stain cleaner so I tried it. It didn't work very well with just a rag, even after leaving it on for 15-20 minutes. But, when I used a 3M doodlebug pad that I had in my garage, it worked quite well. All the silica staining was removed and the chrome wasn't scratched. Now that the chrome is clean, I'm not sure if I should coat it with Rain-x or just plan on cleaning the silica off every month or so. At least the new trims and handles look almost new once again.
 
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Goldenrule

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I've been watching this thread for a while now as I try to figure out why the Grohe chrome shower fixtures I just installed in 2014 had a nasty white residue that I could not remove with vinegar or other suggested cleaners. I took a sample of my water to Pixis Labs here in Portland and found out that I have 57mg/L of Silica (and 224 mg/L of TDS). I looked into RO systems to remove the silica from my softened water but the cost was way too high. (One shop bid $15,000 and required a 400 gal holding tank.) Apparently 57 mg/L is considered "very annoying" when it comes to silica.

Anyway, I found this stuff online called A-Maze water stain cleaner so I tried it. It didn't work very well with just a rag, even after leaving it on for 15-20 minutes. But, when I used a 3M doodlebug pad that I had in my garage, it worked quite well. All the silica staining was removed and the chrome wasn't scratched. Now that the chrome is clean, I'm not sure if I should coat it with Rain-x or just plan on cleaning the silica off every month or so. At least the new trims and handles look almost new once again.
Hi Paul. I am also in the Portland area and am wondering if you have a contact at Pixis Labs? Or, did they give you any other reference points about silica (other than 57 is considered annoying)? We are building in Sherwood and have a well with water that is at 29.2 mg/L of silica. Trying to find out if this will cause a problem or not has been like trying to find a unicorn. The time for us to fix any issues is now before we run the water through our house and fixtures. Of course, the water treatment folks want you to buy whatever they are selling, so I don't feel like they are the most unbiased source of information. OSU Extension Service just copied and pasted some reference material to me that really wasn't helpful. Did Pixis happen to mention at what level silica starts to present a problem? I also can't seem to get a definitive answer on whether it etches only glass, or if it will also etch chrome and other fixtures. Do you know?

I've heard that Rain-X can cause problems for some types of plastic. We have WIRSBO pipe, and I don't want to turn a potential problem into a disaster. Do you know what is in this A-Maze stuff? I want to be cautious about what we put down our drains since we are on a septic system.

Thanks!
 

ditttohead

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The Rain-x is simply applied to the glass shower doors and chrome faucets. It is not put into the water stream.

Levels above 10 ppm of silica tend to be problematic, but water chemistry is beyond complex. Sometimes much higher levels will have little to no negative affect, other times lower levels will be problematic.
 
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