Pressure Regulator with a Pressure Tank?

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by meburdick, Oct 26, 2010.

  1. meburdick

    meburdick New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    CT
    I'm getting ready to replace my well pressure tank because my current one is water-logged (and I'm not getting the kind of capacity I need out of it). As part of the replacement, I will be replacing the "Tee" that has all of the components as well.

    I have every intention of setting my pressure switch for 40/60, and am curious as to whether I "definitely should", "can", or "definitely should not" install a pressure regulator anywhere in the system.

    On one hand, I believe that I should install a pressure regulator before the inlet to the hot water heater to ensure that I don't overrun that component with the 60psi at any point.

    On the other hand, I'd like to have the water flow be fairly consistent from all of the different fixtures and thought that a single regulator on the outlet side of the "Tee" would accomplish this.

    I want to be sure to not disrupt any of the other functionality throughout the house, though. And, I know that "throttling down" the whole system could detract from the other fixtures being able to provide an adequate amount of water. Essentially, I don't want the "bursts" of water at the fixtures when the pump kicks in.
  2. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    I set up most of my systems with 50 to 80 or more psi for high outdoor pressure and then regulate the whole house down to 50 or so. I get a large drawdown and constant pressure indoors. I have one system running 45 to 100 psi for 11 years now without a hitch.

    Your water heater could see 100 psi without any complaints anyway, but not to be advised.
  3. meburdick

    meburdick New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    CT
    That certainly sounds like the basic gist of what I'm trying to do. How do you set up the high pressure? And where do you put regulators? What about expansion tanks since there will effectively be a check valve introduced into the system AFTER the pressure tank?
  4. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    Starting with a 40 to 60 or 70 preset factory switch, the adjustments can be made easily.

    I do not have a tank, and have not seen pressure spikes. My hot water temperature I keep very low. You could add a small well type PRV valve adjustable, after the reducing valve if it worries you.

    Just one regulator at the house entrance like in a city. And the city does not ask you for an expansion tank either.

    You would need top quality hoses outside for the pressure. I find ONLY sears makes a hose worth anything anymore.
  5. meburdick

    meburdick New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    CT
    In your previous post, you said that you set up the house for high pressure. How? Specifically, what did you do?

    Also, to my knowledge, "the town" couldn't care less what happens inside your home (which is where the expansion tank would be), so I wouldn't expect them to require one. The tanks, from what I understand, are typically used to provide a sort of "buffer" for when hot water expands so that the pressure at the tap isn't overwhelming when you first open it.
  6. Furd

    Furd Engineer

    Messages:
    446
    Location:
    Wet side of Washington State
    Your well pump would connect to the pressure tank (cushion tank, diaphragm tank) and the output from this would go first to the home's outside yard hydrants or hose bibbs. Continuing on would come the pressure regulating valve and then the house plumbing. Once you install the PRV you have effectively blocked any relief capacity from the thermal expansion of the water in the water heater so you MUST install a potable water expansion tank somewhere after the PRV; most commonly on the cold supply to the water heater.

    You would adjust the pump pressure switch to a range where the cut-in pressure is above the pressure setting of the PRV. Be sure to have the proper air cushion in both the well pump's pressure tank and the water heater's expansion tank.
  7. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    You dont need the expansion tank unless you have a boiler. Its an odd old myth that my systems certainly certify as wrong.

    Perhaps if you set your hot water heater at 210' and left the house for a year, did not have any plastic pipe inside, and absolutely no micro leaks at some faucet, the P. Relief V. or T&P might drip a bit.
  8. masterpumpman

    masterpumpman New Member

    Messages:
    729
    Location:
    Virginia Beach, VA
  9. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,426
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    This is the best place to install a “regulator”.

    http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/animation.html

    There are lots of reasons not to regulate after the pressure tank. There are lots of reasons you need at least a small pressure tank. Some are control reasons, some are safety reasons, but there are lots of reasons.
  10. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    For the guy that needs monster water outside, have you done a CSV say, 50 to 100 psi at the tank, and then a regulator at the house? Lets throw on a well type PRV in the house too for overpressure.

    The reasons, and we have talked about this before, still do not appear for me. What is the safety reason, at least?
  11. ibroussard

    ibroussard New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Can you elaborate on the reasons for not regulating after the pressure tank? The output side of my pressure tank T's off in two directions -- one to my home, the other to my lawn irrigation system. Each valve in the irrigation system has a built-in pressure regulator (including the master valve). I would also like to put a regulator on the line going to my home so I can increase pressure to the irrigation system without increasing pressure to my home. My plan is to put a small expansion tank immediately after the home's regulator since it will become a closed system (although the PRV manufacturer says the PRV has a pressure release mechanism built into it). What are the problems with doing this (putting a regulator on my home's line after the well pressure tank)?

    Thanks,
    Ira
  12. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,426
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Regulating after the pressure tank will not stop the destructive cycling. That is unless you jack up the pressure settings very close to pump shut off head. Then you have to be very careful not to work so close to dead head that you overheat the pump/motor. This takes careful consideration of the pumps performance curve and pumping water level. Even then a small amount of wear can change the pumps performance and cause the pump/motor to be destroyed by overheating.

    Then working the pressure switch with such a large pressure bandwidth will damage the bladder in the pressure tank as well as excessively contract and expand all other plumbing before the regulator.

    Next all pressure regulators have “creep”. Which means over time they will let the high pressure through to the house plumbing. Then either a pressure relief valve will pop open or the plumbing in the house will be damaged from high pressure.

    Using a Cycle Stop Valve before the pressure tank will regulate pressure, eliminate the destructive cycling without having to work dangerously close to deadhead pressure. Then you can still reduce pressure in the line to the house if needed with a standard pressure regulator without problems.

    In other words regulating pressure on different lines after the pressure tank is OK, as long as you eliminate the cycling without working close to deadhead pressure.
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