Position of torque arrestor ?

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by Crunch, Jun 15, 2013.

  1. Crunch

    Crunch New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Hi,
    I will be pulling my pump next week to check/replace 15+ y.o. pump. Its running but won't get to shut off pressure and has reduced volume. Ammeter is showing same draw each phase. Reading up what I may encounter as this is my first attempt at a pump replacement.

    I was looking at information about TA's and something struck me. What use do TA's serve other than a spacer/guide, if one end of them is not clamped to the pump and other to the drop pipe?

    From what I am reading, purpose is to stop the pump coming loose or playing havoc at the pump/drop pipe connection due to the many starts and stops.

    All but one video had the TA several feet up the drop pipe. To me that makes it a spacer. Am I missing something in how it works?

    If the TA is placed with one end on pump, and one end on drop pipe, would it not be doing both jobs?

    I am thinking if I install one it should be attached to pump and drop pipe.

    (Weather you need a TA or not has been beaten to death in plenty of other threads :) )
  2. craigpump

    craigpump Member

    Messages:
    882
    Location:
    ct
    Yeah you need one or the pump/wire will get beat up big time.

    No they don't keep the pump from coming loose from the pipe, they keep the pump from slamming around in the well when it goes on & off. They also help keep the wire from getting chaffed.

    We always put one over the wire splice just above the pump and open it enough to drag the well bore. Depending on the type of pipe, depth and horsepower we sometimes use as many as 4.
  3. Crunch

    Crunch New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Thanks,
    So TA is a 'buffer/spacer' to stop pump and far end of drop pipe from beating its self on wall of well. It does nothing re torque itself, just tries to control flinging motion of the pump hanging at end of a pipe caused by pump running (torque). Placing TA as close to bottom of drop pipe is advantages.

    My drop pipe is 130 foot of polyethylene pipe. Would I lessen the risk of pump flinging around by replacing with schedule 40/80 PVC pipe?
  4. craigpump

    craigpump Member

    Messages:
    882
    Location:
    ct
    The sch 80 is more rigid, but harder to work with unless you have a way to hold it straight up when you screw it together. I would NEVER use sch 40.

    You want to use what we call a TA 48 or what some guys call a football type of torque arrestor. I would put at least 2 maybe 3 on there to be sure the wire doesn't get beat up.
  5. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,418
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    I think you missed this part. “Dragging the well bore” is where it gets a little grip on the casing to keep torque form spinning the pump/pipe. With a pressure tank only system and single insulated wire, I think they help.

    But, I have never used them. Because they fit so tight in the casing, they can be a reason for the pump to get stuck in the hole when trying to pull it out.

    I cut the motor leads short and splice onto THHN type, double jacketed wire. Use good electric tape above the splice and then every 10 or 20 feet. With this tough double jacketed wire I never had a problem even with a pressure tank only type system. Then for the last 20 years I have used a Cycle Stop Valve on every pump to greatly limit the cycling.

    Limiting the cycling and using double jacketed wire eliminates the need for “cable ties” and “torque arrestors” that are just something else that can fall off or get hung up in the well. I never put anything in the well that I don’t have too.

    A tight fitting torque arrestor can be a big problem when pulling the pump by hand. And if it is not tight fitting, it isn’t doing any good.
  6. Crunch

    Crunch New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    North Carolina
    You are right I missed “Dragging the well bore”.

    I pulled pump out this afternoon by myself. My 12 y.o. had the job of pulling hose down driveway. Well 150 feet, pump at 130, water level currently 45 has been high as 30 feet below surface looking at stains on drop pipe.

    I can see your point about the TA getting stuck. Especially if the depth of the pump is past the end of the casing. Mine had no TA. Motor (bottom) part of pump looks like it had been rubbing against the wall of the well or something. How does one tell if the pump is in the casing or below it and hitting on rocks etc. There is no plate with records of how deep my well originally was or output etc.

    I have used CSV for a year now. Currently have a hose from next door hooked into my tap for water so am good for a day or two while I get this right.

    Edit- Do you use solid or stranded THHH?
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2013
  7. craigpump

    craigpump Member

    Messages:
    882
    Location:
    ct
    The reason the motor looks like it had been rubbed on something is, because it had. Every time the pump starts or stops, the torque from the motor whips it around in the hole, especially with poly pipe.

    I suppose its possible that the torque arrestor could stick the pump in the well, especially if the well is in soft rock that wants to cave in and if the clamps were tightened up, but I haven't seen it. Yet.

    I know a lot of guys use solid core wire, but we use only stranded flat parallel on our installations. My understanding is that the current moves more easily through the strands than it will on a solid core, which theoretically translates to longer motor life.
  8. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,418
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    I would never see where the motor is rubbing the casing, because I use a 4” shroud or flow inducer on every pump. Franklin says you don’t need shrouds, but they like to sell motors. I think a shroud is one of the best ways to lengthen the life of a pump/motor, and I would rather have a motor shroud than insurance on my well pump. Also with a CSV, the pump doesn’t cycle much, so it doesn’t rub against the casing much.

    I use stranded THHN. It has a round, black, outer jacket that makes it less likely to wear on the casing or pipe. It is the same stuff they call direct burial cable, or trey cable.
  9. Crunch

    Crunch New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    North Carolina
    I am going to use sch 80 pvc. 20 foot lenghts, 1 1/4. Should i get fittings and screw each or glue as one length? (140 feet). Can pump undo screw joints?
  10. craigpump

    craigpump Member

    Messages:
    882
    Location:
    ct
    1.25 is more than you need for most domestic applications. The sch 80 we use comes threaded, so yes you can unscrew it.
    I have seen guys thread sch 80 together on the ground and run it in as one piece, but I have also seen the pipe break doing that. So buyer beware....

    A flow inducer sleeve is a good idea, but it doesn't keep the pump from whipping when it comes on and goes off.
  11. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,418
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    No, but with a CSV it only comes on and off 20 times a day instead 100 times a day, which makes a big difference.
  12. Crunch

    Crunch New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Job completed.

    Pulled old pump to bits and found reason for not getting to cut off pressure:)

    I was getting water at about 5 gpm at 5- 10 psi to house and with no water being drawn, water pressure would level out at 45- 50 psi. Water about 40 feet below grade.
    .

    20130701_134839001.jpg
  13. craigpump

    craigpump Member

    Messages:
    882
    Location:
    ct
    Amazing they work at all when they look like that
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