Plumbing facts of life

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & ' started by kingsotall, Feb 22, 2009.

  1. kingsotall

    kingsotall Plunger/TurdPuncher

    They're out there. They are plumbing controversaries. I am wondering which ones give you the most grief, or those plumbers around you that you strongly believe in.
    Case in point:
    Only dope threads vs. Tef tape and dope threads.
    PVC for DWV (what the heck is that black stuff?!) vs. ABS til I die!!!!

    ad infinitum...
  2. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

    Messages:
    8,997
    Location:
    San Diego
    Tape vs. dope vs. both, is not a controversy. It is a point of discussion. An opinion. Same for putty vs. silicon. Old fogie types like me, and maybe some others, do somehing because it has always been reliable for us, so change is hard to come by!

    Now, AAV vs. NOT....that may be a controversy.

    PVC vs. ABS....some area you may not have a choice. Supply house will stock one or the other, but not necessarily both.
  3. Waterwelldude

    Waterwelldude Well driller,pump repair. and septic installer

    Messages:
    303
    Location:
    Texas
    PVC glue with cleaner. This has always been a good argument at lunch time...lol

    I will not use cleaner when I am gluing pvc.
    The cleaner is supposed to take off the wax layer.. It might, but it leaves a thin film of the cleaner itself. Any time a pipe has cleaner on it, it will not let the glue bond with the pvc.

    A simple test. Take 2 pieces of pipe and a coupling. One one piece use cleaner, and the other, no cleaner. Glue them together with the coupling.
    Let it sit over night if you want. Put the pipe in a vice with the coupling free.
    Use a pipe wrench on the opposite pipe, and turn. The side with the cleaner will be the one that turn. Every time.

    I have had this discussion with lots of plumbers. In some cases, it is in there rules they have to use cleaner to be up to code.

    When we have a service call, and we see they used cleaner. 9 out of 10 times, that piece of pipe will have some kind of tie or restraint on it.

    I myself will not use cleaner.



    Travis
  4. gardner

    gardner DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    217
    Location:
    Ontario
    Closet flange flush with, or on top of finished floor.

    Pex or not.
  5. Furd

    Furd Engineer

    Messages:
    446
    Location:
    Wet side of Washington State
    When PVC piping was first introduced there was no cleaner. The instructions, however, were quite explicit that it was necessary to wipe any surface dirt from the area to be inserted into the socket AND to use fine sandpaper to remove the gloss. This was required of both the pipe end and the socket. After cleaning the instructions were to daub the solvent cement on the pipe end, inside the socket and again on the pipe end and then push the fitting and the pipe together with a 1/4 turn twisting motion. I never had a single problem when following this procedure.

    I suspect the cleaner came about because too many people skipped the mechanical cleaning step and simply daubed on the solvent cement and shoved the fitting on the pipe, often without even giving it a twist to distribute the cement.
  6. SewerRatz

    SewerRatz Illinois Licensed Plumber

    Messages:
    1,705
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    I was told that they stooped with the mechanical way of cleaning the pipe and fittings was people sanded of to much of the material, as for the twist motion they still recommend that but its not to evenly distribute the cement but to remove air bubbles.

    How about putty to set a water closet vs. wax rings vs them new no-wax gaskets.
  7. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Messages:
    5,980
    Location:
    Ohio
    PVC: If you allow the primer to evaporate for a short while the glue will work just fine and it will degloss the pvc....now if it is the purple primer...problems will be had...
  8. kingsotall

    kingsotall Plunger/TurdPuncher

    What about expansion tanks even if not required. Sure they will need the appropriate PRV but we got along without them for years...
  9. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

    Messages:
    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine
    I look at things like this as an opportunity to make more money. ;)
  10. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Messages:
    5,980
    Location:
    Ohio
    Expansion tanks don't need a PRV...you only need a closed system which you can have by just installing a check valve....I go into many homes with 60-70# PSI with a check valve installed and a weeping T&P...they are in need of an expansion tank to stabilize the pressure and stop the T&P from weeping...while heaters will operate with erratic pressures a stable pressure will extend fixture life...
  11. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,636
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    opinions

    Expansion tanks do not need a PRV, but a PRV SHOULD HAVE an expansion tank, even though millions have been installed without the tank. Most of the other postings are about personal preferences, and for those there is no concensus because EVERYONE believes their way is best. Sort of like the writer in this month/s PHC News who states that "anyone who does not price his way is a moron". Examples of his pricing, from his article, is Installing a 1 1/2" CP tubing trap, $524.00, ($696.92 overtime), or $824.00 and $1,095.92 respectively, if you don't have the replacement parts on the truck. You don't want to know what you should add if you need to replace slipnuts and things like that.
  12. SewerRatz

    SewerRatz Illinois Licensed Plumber

    Messages:
    1,705
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    I like that man's way of thinking. I just read the article myself the other day. He does have one fact there are way to many guys out there not charging enough, I say let them not charge enough eventually they will go under from being in the red all the time. I admit I am not the cheapest guy on the block but I am not the most expensive one either.

    I had a home owner ask me our price to clear a water closet. Once she heard the price to told me to do something with myself, which I will not repeat here. After a half hour past from her slamming the phone down in my ear, she called back apologizing to me, asking me if I can still come out at the price quoted. She said I was by far the most reasonable price given to her out of 7 other shops she called. She happened to call the guys with the huge two page ads that us the flat rate pricing like the guy in the PHC magazine.
  13. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,636
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    The guy

    Yes, he and I have had a few discussions, sometimes quoted in his subsequent articles, where I disagreed and resented him calling us "morons", "idiots", and other perjoratives because we did not do things his way.
  14. Dahlman

    Dahlman VP at Dahl Brothers Canada Limited

    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    Mississauga Ontario Canada
    My biggest gripe is all of the Internet advice to use pipe dope or Teflon tape on compression joints. AARRRGH!!!!! On another website, the "best" answer for how to make up a compression joint ended with "And don't forget the Teflon tape!". Okay...:rolleyes:

    It's a dry mechanical joint and not intended for use with either one.

    1) Using pipe dope on compression threads serves as a lubricant that can lead to over-tightening of the nut.
    2) Using Teflon tape sets up hoop stresses that will flare the nut outwards on what is a parallel thread, and could make the nut susceptible to stress corrosion cracking (SCC). The scary thing about SCC is that it won't happen right away....it may not let go for weeks, months or years but when it does, it will be messy.

    Okay, thanks for the vent. Time to curl up with a box of chocolates and The Color Purple.....:D
  15. kingsotall

    kingsotall Plunger/TurdPuncher

    Maybe that's what this threads intent was for, venting. Uh oh gonna get someone started on venting, wet venting, re-venting... :rolleyes:
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2009
  16. SewerRatz

    SewerRatz Illinois Licensed Plumber

    Messages:
    1,705
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Oh we can really stir the pot talking about vents. Most have a hard time comprehending simple venting techniques. Lets through out Circuit Vents, Relief Vents, and Yoke Vents. Oh and do not forget the Mechanical Vents.. oh I am sorry the AAV crowd does not like to call a Air Admittance Valve a mechanical vent.

    On another forum I had a guy trying to tell me AAV's are allowed in Illinois, that a AAV is not mechanical at all and do not fail. I had to point out two parts of the Illinois code that disallows these devices. Color bold added by me.

    Section 890.1420 Stack Vents, Vent Stacks, Main Vents

    a) Design. A properly designed and installed venting system, in conjunction with the soil or waste system, is essential to protect trap seals and prevent siphonage, aspiration, or back pressure. The venting system shall be designed and installed to permit the admission or emission of air so that under normal and intended use the seal of any fixture trap shall never be subjected to a pneumatic pressure differential of more than a one (1) inch water column. If a trap seal is subject to loss by evaporation, means shall be provided to prevent loss of the trap seal. (See Section 890.410(f).) ​



    Section 890.1480 Types of Fixture Trap Vents

    d) Mechanical Vents. Mechanical devices shall not be installed in lieu of vent piping.​


    The fact AAV by its own name is an Air Admittance Valve, it does not allow any emission of air that disallows the use of them. Drainage systems do not only have negative pressures with in them they do happen to develop positive pressures as well which needs to be properly vented to prevent the drains from belching gas out of their trap seals.
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