plumber not using purple primer

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tmw

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I am having two bathrooms remodeled as part of an addition--I've done some plumbing myself, but decided to leave this to the contractor who can work on it all day long without my wife telling me I did things wrong :0.

Anyway, we had lots of inpsections (framing, electrical, insulation, zoning, gas pressure, etc), but evidently we didn't have the plumbing rough inspection, and all the plumbing stuff is covered up (e.g. tile in shower, drywall, floors, etc). The final inspector stopped by today, and informed us we didn't do that inspection.

Anyway, the final inspector looked at the accessible joints (e.g. PVC drains to sinks) and noticed there wasn't any purple primer. He didn't like that.

He wanted to see more, and fortunately there is a place where we haven't installed new carpet (part of the footprint of the old bathroom), and we pulled up the plywood to look. He found another joint missing primer, although some did have it.

My contractor/plumber told me that the joints that are accessible don't need primer--only the joints in the wall need primer. He showed me some existing drains (e.g. the kitchen sink) where you couldn't see the primer.

I have read the debate about using primer (and how people survived in tthe 60's before the days of primer), but I don't understand why plumbers would use it on some joints but not the accessible ones. I had always just used plenty of it everywhere.

Any thoughts about when to use purple primer? Do you not use it on drains closests to the sinks, or that are accessible?
Thanks,
Tim

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JohnjH2o1

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I'm surprised the inspector didn't make him redo it. Primer should be used on all joints.

John
 

NHmaster

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Your contractor/plumber apparently does not have a license. ALL PVC piping and fittings need to be primed. Depending on your local code you may or may not have to use purple primer but you darn sure need primer. PVC makes a solvent weld, but only if the joints are properly prepared. The primer softens the pipe and fitting allowing the glue to penetrate deeper and make what is essentially a solid joint.
 
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hj

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I cannot imagine a plumber using primer sometimes and not at others. He cannot just pick and choose which ones he wants to do. The inspector would be within his rights to make him redo the entire job, and our inspectors would. AND they would want to see purple primer on EVERY joint, and not just painted onto the joints he missed.
 

tmw

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Covering up mistakes

Thanks for the replies, confirming what I thought was correct. This place and the real-life information is awesome.

Does anyone have thoughts on how I can tell my guy actually replaced joints, instead of just painting primer on top of the existing joints?

I have to say that I'm really disappointed in him.:( He's a really nice person, but this seems like just a really stupid mistake choosing to not use purple primer. That, or maybe I just thought it was a simple process--primer both sides, cement both side, push together with twist, hold, and them make sure it's a tight joint. And it seems like it will be a really awkward thing to fix too.:confused:

Thanks again!
Tim
 

JohnjH2o1

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There is only one way to fix it. Cut all the unprimed joints out and replace the fittings.

John
 

hj

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For all practical purposes, unless the system is very flexible, the only way to fix it is to take it out, throw it away, and do it over again. The bad joints would have to be cut apart, which means he would have to use new fittings AND two couplings at every one of them, and even then there would have to be enough movement so it could spread the parts to insert them into the fittings. If there is not change in the piping, but the joints have primer on them, then they were just painted.
 

motoq2000

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Also wondering if plumber solvent-welded my PVC correctly??

Wow, our situation sounds an awful lot like Tim's... I don't mean to hi-jack the thread, but would like to share my similar story.

We are having all of the cast-iron drains in the house replaced with PVC pipe, as part of a whole-house remodel. The plumbing is roughed-in at this point, along with the electrical. My dad, who's skilled in the trades, came by to take a look at the plumbing work. He brought up some concerns with the PVC drain plumbing, specifically the solvent welding and the way the pipes have been joined.

He's concerned that the plumber did not prime the pipe joints adequately before glueing them. He is using clear primer (not the purple stuff) and cement...my dad pointed out that the way to tell if the PVC pipe was primed properly is to see if the lettering on the PVC pipe was wiped clear or (at least) heavily blurred at the joint. This would be caused by the proper application of the solvent/primer. At almost all joints, the printed lettering is still intact on the male pipe-end, indicating that the plumber did not apply primer liberally or adequately enough when fitting the pipe. There's also not a lot cement coming out of the joints either.

I don't want to knit-pick this plumber or anything like that, but my dad was pretty adamant about their being a problem with this work. My dad is not a licensed plumber, but he's been a pipe-fitter for 30 years, so he has an eye for pipework. Of course all my wife and I care about is that the drain pipes don't leak now or down the road.

Anyone have thoughts on this? I also found a short video clip showing the application of primer to PVC pipe. The clip shows how the primer erases the lettering on the pipe, well past the joint once it is fitted:


As you can see from my pictures, it doesn't look like the same process shown in the video was followed in fitting the drain pipes at my house. I want to give the plumber the benefit of the doubt (perhaps he was super-neat and overly meticulous in applying the primer??), but my dad said no one works like that when fitting pipes, which is fast work. If this is indeed a problem, we don't want the plumber to continue installing more pipe.

Would love any advice or insight!! Also, Tim would really like to hear what has transpired on your project.
-Stephen

P.S. - A permit was pulled for this job and an inspection will need to happen soon.... but who knows how easy/hard the city inspector will be.
 
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Cass

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Those joints were not primed with clear or purple primer...when primer is used it removes or at least distorts the red / black printing you see on the pipe....personaly I would have it removed and replaced...I can only assume that this job is or was not inspected...

Ohio used to not require primer but changed the code back in the early 90s...I now from time to time have to fix leaks that pop up in non primed PVC joints from homes built before they started requiring primer.

It has always been recomended...
 
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Nukeman

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Most inspectors want to see the purple primer. That way they know the joints have been primed. I would talk to the inspector to see if clear primer is allowed in your area. If not, the inspector may have you rip it all out and start over. Best to catch it and fix it before additional pipe is laid.
 

Cass

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Thanks for the replies, confirming what I thought was correct. This place and the real-life information is awesome.

Does anyone have thoughts on how I can tell my guy actually replaced joints, instead of just painting primer on top of the existing joints?

I have to say that I'm really disappointed in him.:( He's a really nice person, but this seems like just a really stupid mistake choosing to not use purple primer. That, or maybe I just thought it was a simple process--primer both sides, cement both side, push together with twist, hold, and them make sure it's a tight joint. And it seems like it will be a really awkward thing to fix too.:confused:

Thanks again!
Tim

Who pulled the permit...you or your plumber...
 

motoq2000

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Thanks guys, not the news I want to hear but I appreciate the candid insight. So I spoke with the GC about my concerns, and he checked with plumber on this... Of course - as expected - the plumber is defending his work and the GC is "betting his b*lls" that the pipe will not fail. He claims the inspector is going to want to check it for leaks via water & pressure tests on the day of the inspection -- and that he won't be going by the appearance of the joint fits.

The GC also contends that he purple primer is required in a neighboring state (NH), but not in MA. He further contends that the purple stuff is a "commercial" and "residential/DIY" thing...

I really need to go over the GC and ask this plumber point blank, "did you use primer on these fittings - and if not, why not?". It's not going to make for comfortable discussion. In the meantime, I am going to try and contact some local plumbing inspectors from neighboring municipalities and try to get their take.
 

theBigSee

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My two cents, for what it is worth -- I am sure the primed joints are superior and that's what should be done. However, in my early days of home improvement tinkering, I re-did my entire sprinkler system and had no idea that I needed that purple stuff, I just used the clear glue. 10 years later -- no leaks!

But I'd be worried if I'd done it INSIDE versus having a patch of lawn ruined . . .
 

Cass

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again...there was no primer used clear or purple...it is obvious....
 

Nukeman

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Right. I understand. Just wanted to clear up whether clear primer was allowed in MA as I know many areas what to see purple.

If it were me, I would want the joints redone. They many hold up fine as they are, but I wouldn't want them behind my walls unless they were done right.
 

motoq2000

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Inspector feedback

Here's what one municipal plumbing inspector (in MA) told me:

They “appear†to be glued and possibly not primed for the reasons you mentioned. The non smear in the lettering gives it away but like you said it could have been a quick job from a neat plumber. I would ask where this is located and if there is/was a permit issued. I would make sure it was installed by a licensed plumber and then go from there.

There is little to no chance this would blow out as drainage pipe sees little if any pressure in a gravity system. Possibly if this is being pumped (sump pump) but it appears to be a typical drainage installation.


I know the primer was on-site (I saw the can), the question is was he using it enough....
 

JohnjH2o1

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Here's what one municipal plumbing inspector (in MA) told me:

They “appear” to be glued and possibly not primed for the reasons you mentioned. The non smear in the lettering gives it away but like you said it could have been a quick job from a neat plumber. I would ask where this is located and if there is/was a permit issued. I would make sure it was installed by a licensed plumber and then go from there.

There is little to no chance this would blow out as drainage pipe sees little if any pressure in a gravity system. Possibly if this is being pumped (sump pump) but it appears to be a typical drainage installation.


I know the primer was on-site (I saw the can), the question is was he using it enough....

If this inspector saw it and passed it he is not doing his job. It's beginning to sound like there was no permit or inspection on the job.

John
 

Nukeman

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My understanding is there is a permit, but hasn't been an inspection yet. I believe his 1st post said about the inspection needing to happen soon.

motoq: Did the plumber pull the permit or did you?
 

motoq2000

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Clarifying -

Sorry guys, my last post was confusing.

The MA-based inspector who provided me comments was not MY local inspector. I emailed the photos to an inspector in a city on the other side of the state... just to get his professional opinion.

When it comes to my own municpal inspector - who will be conducting the actual inspection - I will be sure to tell him beforehand that I have concerns about the PVC joint welds.

As far as the permit, I didn't pull it. My assumption is that either the plumber or the GC overseeing the whole renovation pulled the permit with my city. Of course, I need to stop assuming... :confused:
 
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