Plumber didn't center shower drain rough in under the drain hole - how big a problem is this?

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Troutd0g

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In my bathroom remodel I am converting tub to shower. I cut a new drain hole in the subfloor and removed an adjacent section of subfloor to get access to the plumbing. Hired licensed plumber to convert the 1.5" tub drain, p-trap and vent with 2" and relocate the drain to the center of the shower. I am installing Kerri shower so I had him rough in the drain up to the trap and leave the riser unglued so that I can cut it to length and attach the kerdi drain when I am ready. After he was done I replaced the section of subfloor and added 1/2 inch of plywood subfloor to existing 3/4" OSB to stiffen the floor. When I dry fitted section of 2" abs to start planning the drain install I noticed that the drain rough in is off center substantially - see picture. There is a little play in the pipes that will result in the top end of the riser not being co-planar to the floor. Will abs cement still bond and seal if I fudge the pipes in their fittings at each end to correct for the alignment problem?

It is frustrating that a licensed plumber can't do a more careful job than that.
Is it normal to not be able to center a drain rough in with better accuracy? Are my expectations out of line?
 

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Jadnashua

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are you using the foam pan, or making your own with deck mud? If deck mud, it isn't a significant problem. If it's the pan, if you try to bend the pipe, it will also tilt it, and that is a major issue as the drain must sit perfectly flat and level.
 

Master Plumber Mark

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It looks pretty close to me... and it probably will move enough to be perfect
probably just wedging a 2x4 shim on the left side of the hole will line it ip ok..

Have you considered just calling the plumber back out and seeing what he can do to correct this error>>>??

just for my own education, what kind of floor drain is that you are installing anyway??
It appears that some sort of membrane goes into the drain and is there some sort of
clamping ring that goes on it??? Your floor drain scares me just wondering about it....

if you are really totally insistent on getting it down to perfect, simply cut the stand pipe
above the trap and install a 2 inch Fernco fitting... you can fudge quite a bit with one of them
pre fit the pipe and the drain to perfect
then clamp it all down tight.
 

Cacher_Chick

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Better that you stopped now as it will not be too hard to correct the piping. There is no "one size fits all", and the exact location totally depends on the design of the shower pan.
 

Master Plumber Mark

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Better that you stopped now as it will not be too hard to correct the piping. There is no "one size fits all", and the exact location totally depends on the design of the shower pan.


its really not that big of an issue.. especially if he is pouring concrete... its basically off under 3/4 of
an inch and should move that much

it really wont matter unless this guy gets a hair in his ass about it being perfectly centered in the stall and it nags
at him for years to come.....
 

Cacher_Chick

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its really not that big of an issue.. especially if he is pouring concrete... its basically off under 3/4 of
an inch and should move that much

it really wont matter unless this guy gets a hair in his ass about it being perfectly centered in the stall and it nags
at him for years to come.....

Its a kerdi shower, so there will not be any concrete.
Some of us are detail-oriented and really prefer things to be as near to perfect as possible.
I lose a lot of sleep over other peoples workmanship.
 

Master Plumber Mark

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Its a kerdi shower, so there will not be any concrete.
Some of us are detail-oriented and really prefer things to be as near to perfect as possible.
I lose a lot of sleep over other peoples workmanship.


never heard of a kerdi shower,,, but that floor flange looks pretty cheesy to me
I would just call the plumber and have him come back out..... if this is on a crawl space it should not
be too much of a problem to simply move it over 3/4 of an inch....

He is probably only gonna do this once for you to please you
so you better be there with a ruler and sign off on it .......

if the floor needs to be taken up to do this ,
then it will just have to be taken up.....

now let me guess, you and the plumber have had a falling out??


 

Troutd0g

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never heard of a kerdi shower,,, but that floor flange looks pretty cheesy to me
I would just call the plumber and have him come back out..... if this is on a crawl space it should not
be too much of a problem to simply move it over 3/4 of an inch....

He is probably only gonna do this once for you to please you
so you better be there with a ruler and sign off on it .......

if the floor needs to be taken up to do this ,
then it will just have to be taken up.....

now let me guess, you and the plumber have had a falling out??

No falling out at all. In fact I added a gratuity to the invoice. But I should have inserted the riser sooner. The rough in is 10 inches below floor surface and it looked fine from visual inspection. I would bet the plumber would redo it if I asked him to. He wants satisfied customers. The issue is I have to remove 2 layers of subfloor which are glued and screwed per recommended practice. This is second story bathroom so no access from below, unless I cut open kitchen ceiling from below.
 

Troutd0g

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@Master Plumber Mark the drain assembly is a kerdi drain from Schluter Kerdi company. They make membrane based waterproof shower solutions. Lots of info on them in a John Bridge forum. Pretty cool stuff and VERY popular, particularly among DIYers who are repairing water damaged showers and bathrooms - like me :)
 

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You DID NOT see the problem when you were putting the flooring back? It should have been just as obvious as it is now.

I did not notice until I inserted the riser. The p trap is 10 inches below surface. I should have checked it carefully and not trusted my eyes. Visually it looks fine from above.
 

Troutd0g

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are you using the foam pan, or making your own with deck mud? If deck mud, it isn't a significant problem. If it's the pan, if you try to bend the pipe, it will also tilt it, and that is a major issue as the drain must sit perfectly flat and level.


Using the foam pan. Or that was my plan... This may force me to have somebody pour a mud pan.
 

Reach4

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I did not notice until I inserted the riser. The p trap is 10 inches below surface. I should have checked it carefully and not trusted my eyes. Visually it looks fine from above.
How about an offset piece with two 22.5 degree fittings?
I don't guess they offer an offset drain for that system...
abbb9721-0e57-46fc-a124-2ebb9869abaa_145.jpg
 

Jadnashua

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How about an offset piece with two 22.5 degree fittings?
I don't guess they offer an offset drain for that system...
abbb9721-0e57-46fc-a124-2ebb9869abaa_145.jpg
The Kerdi drain is designed to be bonded directly to the waterproof membrane...there is no clamping ring, no weep holes, etc., since the waterproofing is designed to have tile applied directly to it. THis makes the shower construction simpler since you don't need as many layers (preslope, liner, setting bed - just the preslope and the membrane). The OD of the drain is quite large, so it is important for the riser to be about as perfectly plumb as possible since any error will cause an edge to tip up. The large OD is useful to create the needed waterproof bond to the surface. Kerdi has been available in the USA since the late 1980's...so, by no means is it 'new'. IMHO, it is a better way to build a shower since everything beneath the tile is waterproof, all the way up to at least the height of the showerhead (or higher, if you continue the membrane, but at least to the shower head is required). In fact, the preferred backing for it is drywall, but cbu will work fine, too, if you insist. It passes all code and plumbing requirements for a shower construction.

Bending drain lines is not a great idea. But, if you don't want to deal with the drain, a mudbed is easy to build (think wet beach sand) and cheap, to make your preslope, and then, a slight error isn't a big deal in the centering of the drain. IMHO, if you're able to do the tile work, you can make a mudbed. Even if you make a trial, then tear it out, your cost will be way less than the foam pan. The foam pan isn't all that forgiving - things have to line up within a small margin of error for it to work well. You might have about 1/4" slop for the drain to fit into the depression in the pre-formed foam pan.
 

Master Plumber Mark

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No falling out at all. In fact I added a gratuity to the invoice. But I should have inserted the riser sooner. The rough in is 10 inches below floor surface and it looked fine from visual inspection. I would bet the plumber would redo it if I asked him to. He wants satisfied customers. The issue is I have to remove 2 layers of subfloor which are glued and screwed per recommended practice. This is second story bathroom so no access from below, unless I cut open kitchen ceiling from below.


call the plumber back out and see what he can do
it sounds like he got it pretty close considering the trap is down
about 16 inches ... and again it should move that much.....
I would not remove the layers of plywood .....

if worse comes to worse, just cut the hole in the ceiling of the kitchen
and then cut the pvc line and move it over to exact perfect....
Either you repair the drywall , or you go to Lowes and buy a dummy
heat register in white perhaps a 8x10 grill and simply hide that hole
by screwing it up to the ceiling,,, put a peice of white paper on top the
grill so you cant see through it and move on with the job...

we do this all the time when we have to make repairs to ceiling leaks...

 

Troutd0g

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Plumber is going to install back to back street 22 hubs - it appears to center it up. Unfortunately I will have a slight bend directly below the drain flange and before the trap but since it is a shower, not a kitchen sink or toilet drain it should have no solids beyond soap suds.
 

Master Plumber Mark

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Plumber is going to install back to back street 22 hubs - it appears to center it up. Unfortunately I will have a slight bend directly below the drain flange and before the trap but since it is a shower, not a kitchen sink or toilet drain it should have no solids beyond soap suds.

The water will not know the difference when it goes down that stand pipe
glad that he came back and got you all settled down..

carry on
 

Troutd0g

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Well the situation just got worse...

The plumber came to install the 2 22.5 hubs. He immediately set to work prepping the glue and I said "slow down buddy" before you glue it, why not dry fit it and just make sure it's actually going to work? He said ok and did that and it looked good. Then he pulled the pieces apart and glued them in and left. I checked it and noticed that now the drain rough-in is no longer level/co-planar with the floor. He apparently wasn't paying attention to the fact there's only one position where the 2 bends can be in relation to each other in order to maintain coplanar ends. He was slightly off when he glued that part. So now one end of the pipe is 0.25 inches higher than the other. And now the drain flange will no longer seat flat to the floor.

In order to make it level I will need to torque it and put a permanent strain in the rest of the drain assembly.

I know this is a difficult question to answer, but how much strain is unhealthy for ABS pipe fittings? Will it cause eventual failure?

I called the plumber back and he wants to install some bracing to coax it into place.
It would be pretty hard to set the drain flange in thinset if I have to apply pressure to keep it in place.

The unfortunate alternative is to rip the floor out again and redo from the start.

I feel like this plumber should bear the cost of all of that - but I can only imagine how that conversation is going to go...

Thoughts/guidance?
 

Jadnashua

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I've heard of people putting a screw or two through the outer, high edge of the flange to hold it in place. I'm not recommending that. If the screw(s) are set low enough (probably in one of the existing holes so that the head is flush when in), you won't have a lump when installing the membrane over top. Ideally, it would not need to be torqued. The whole drain is in the order of 12" across, so 1/4" is probably about 1-2 degrees, not much, but it is, as you can tell, noticeable. Later, before thinsetting the foam, pull the foam out, make sure you get a good coat of thinset both under it and on top, then slide it under the drain...smush the drain in place, and place a bag of thinset on it for at least a few hours after placing either some wax paper or plastic wrap or a plastic shopping bag over it so the thinset bag (or a box of tile) doesn't get stuck to your drain. Also, just prior to that, take a wet sponge and clean any thinset off that might have come up through the holes in the edge of the drain so the thinset is flush with the top.

If you do redo it, place the foam pan down temporarily, or tear the center ring out after drawing a mark on your subfloor to ensure it is aligned (it's designed for that!), and set the flange on it while gluing it up. That should make it much easier to get it where you want in both height, location, and plumb.
 

Master Plumber Mark

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I looked at your original picture and there appears to be mounting
holes in that flange where flat head screws go to make the flange set
firm to the floor...the outer ring looks like some sort of metal to me...

....before you go any further
just install a couple of flat head screws on the
high side and draw it down to the floor. perhaps if it lifts up
enough and you are satisfied with it being down good enough then
go ahead the throw a huge load of silicone under the flange to glue it
down firmly with.. then screw it down......

this drain flange is basically no different than a toilet flange which sits on a floor
and many times I have had to draw them down with flat headed screws
due to slightly off level installs..


now lets see a picture of how off it is
 
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