Pls comment on my softwater plan

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by 70runner, Sep 29, 2013.

  1. 70runner

    70runner New Member

    Messages:
    17
    Location:
    Fallbrook, CA
    3 people, muni water, no iron/manganese, 16gpg, 1" supply line, 4 baths, no special shower/tub sprayers. I'm a fan of 2 tank systems, having installed a Fleck twinflo system at previous residence. Going with 9100SXT valve. The numbers work out to a 32K system, but a couple vendors have suggested 40K to extend regen by a couple days.?.

    Using potassium chloride since the backwash will be routed to area with trees/plants and one member of house is on restricted sodium. 8x33 round brine tank with salt grid.

    Having water tested again this coming week to assess chlorine level. At what point (chlorine level) would a charcoal prefilter be needed?

    Plan to use standard 8% resin, USA brand like Purolite C100E. Pondering vortech vs gravel bed, but will probably stay with gravel. Do I need top screen?

    The system will sit outside (no other reasonable option), but well under roof overhang, and I'm in SOCAL so freezing isn't a big concern. I may wrap the resin tanks with some insulation.
  2. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,480
    Location:
    Alaska
    And what is the water quality?
    hardness
    iron
    mn if any?
  3. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,828
    Location:
    Ontario California
    If you are in the Riverside area, no reason to insulate tanks. A cheap stainless decorative jacket would not be a bad idea, but not overly necessary either.

    Chlorine levels above 1 ppm should be installed with 10% crosslink resin or a simple GAC backwashing system. I recommend GAC on most municipal supplies.

    Dumping the waste in that manner does not meet local codes and it should be routed to a proper sewer drain. I have my system running the irrigation, but the high TDS gets diverted to sewer.

    Instead of potassium chloride, how about a RO drinking water system, probably a lot cheaper than potassium.

    Sounds like you are on the right track. I would recommend dual 10x54 at minimum for your larger house size if you are going with the 9100SXT.
  4. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    70runner, you get 7.85 mg/liter (roughly a quart) of added sodium per grain per gallon of ion exchange softening. Check the label on your food and beverages and you'll see that in many cases your sodium won't be as high and actually, how many quarts of softened water would you be ingesting daily anyway?

    Using a high salt efficiency setting means that to use potassium chloride you must increase the dose and as much as 30% more to get the same regenerated capacity as sodium chloride would provide.

    Either sodium or potassium will kill plants if there is enough of it for a long enough time. Chlorides kill vegetation too.

    Gravel underbed is a good choice. A top basket is too.
  5. lifespeed

    lifespeed Member

    Messages:
    321
    Location:
    California
    How did you manage separating the brine water from the backwash/rinse water? Sounds like a clever and useful arrangement, especially in dry So. Cal.

    Agreed, RO is inexpensive, easy and tastes great!
  6. 70runner

    70runner New Member

    Messages:
    17
    Location:
    Fallbrook, CA
    I was hoping you guys would chime in - THX. There is no drain (septic) near the install location (supply line). The previous owners installed a LifeSource tank with prefilter at the location. The water line comes in near a rear bedroom. The LifeSource guys ran the connecting lines around the corner of the house to a side walkway, about a 20ft run. Both the units are leaking so I have to do something. LifeSource wants a couple C notes just to come look at it, plus I'm not especially fond of this product/company anyway.
    Water supply.jpg LifeSource.jpg

    The nearest bathroom is probably 25ft away where I might be able to find a drain in the wall (big job). We actually live in Fallbrook CA now. The LifeSource drains to a portion of an avocado tree grove. I've spoken to some local avocado nursuries and they say the potassium effluent, in moderation, would be beneficial to the trees. Another reason I opted for potassium chloride. I had a Rayne guy come out and look at it and he said same thing, drain to the grove and use potassium chloride as there is no septic drain near the area.

    Or as an alternative I could just replace the LifeSource with a whole house charcoal, but then I still have the hard water. Pressing on with a 3 ball valve bypass, so I can remedy the leaking. Whatever I do, I can then plumb it to the ends of the bypass.
  7. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,828
    Location:
    Ontario California
    I use a TDS meter on the drain that has set points based on TDS. This actuates a 3 way ball valve which is set to go to the lawn or to the sewer based on TDS.

    We use this set up regularly in brine restricted areas. The high TDS water gets diverted to storage for later haul awya, the low tds water goes to the sewer. many municipalities have tds limits for what can go down the drain.

    quadtank.jpg
  8. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,828
    Location:
    Ontario California

    The filter without a bypass is always a bad idea. You are correct to add a 3 valve bypass, but in reality, you should not need the sediment filter before or after the Lifesource system.

    The potassium isnot the issue, avacado trees are highly sussceptible to the chloride levels in the water. Here is agood article explaining it. These Chloride tolerance issues are one of the primary reasons for softener bans in many areas. The water gets reused and elevated chloride levels can be problematic for many trees. http://www.avocadosource.com/CAS_Yearbooks/CAS_17_1932/CAS_1932_PG_048-049.pdf

    Do you have a 1 or 2 story house? You can usually find a drain pipe in the wall by turning on water upstairs and listening to the walls below the upstairs drains. Adding a p-trap is fairly easy.

    I hope this information is helpful.

    And... 25 feet away is not problem, I would recommend running it in 1/2" or 3/4" PVC.
  9. 70runner

    70runner New Member

    Messages:
    17
    Location:
    Fallbrook, CA
    Very helpful, thx again. Single story. Guess I have to find a drain or no softener.
  10. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Above (post #3) you said: "it should be routed to a proper sewer drain. I have my system running the irrigation, but the high TDS gets diverted to sewer.". Now in this post you say just the opposite.

    Can you direct us to where we could find municipalities outside California that limit TDS going into their sewer systems?

    How about telling us where the high TDS water is hauled away to.
  11. Reach4

    Reach4 Active Member

    Messages:
    2,127
    Location:
    IL
    I am just an observer, but if that is a regenerating granulated carbon tank, it seems like a waste to not get that fixed. Maybe the media can be reloaded. I don't have the knowledge to tell you what to put in there or how to do it, but even though you don't think that system is worth its cost, do you really want to throw it away? A water softener in series could be good. I would think the water softener would go after the carbon filter, but others may know otherwise.

    Regarding the plastic filter leaking, if you can get an O-ring and food-grade silicone grease, I suspect you can stop that leak. I would change the filter element while I was at it. I also don't know where to get that filter cartridge or what you would ask for. If fixing the current leaking system is of interest, somebody might have that info.
  12. 70runner

    70runner New Member

    Messages:
    17
    Location:
    Fallbrook, CA
    I considered that, however, the company was very uninterested in helping me beyond explaining the cost for a visit. The system not only leaks it doesn't regen either. They offered to come "look at it" for $250, parts & labor rises (probably exponentially) from there. Very pricey for a simple regenerating carbon filter. A lot of better alternatives. The plastic filter is their product. Just don't like the company.
  13. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,828
    Location:
    Ontario California
    [​IMG]
  14. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Yeah that's what I thought.... dazzle'em with BS and hide when called on it.

    BTW, you have a huge and probably damaging error in your Clack rebuild video. I suspect you'll deny it.
  15. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,828
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Sigh, dont you ever get tired of this?

    Use google or bing search for brine discharge restrictions, it is really that simple.

    In So Cal, we transfer brine discharge from many industries to local SARI points that are set up for this. http://www.wmwd.com/index.aspx?NID=183

    And please let me know the error. I have no problem changing or fixing these videos. I am sure I will make some errors in them and have no problem learning or expanding my knowledge.

    Thanks.
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2013
  16. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Nope, I love your dazzling your way through things.

    Yep, that's what I thought, you'd evade, and you have.

    Hell man I've started believing you know everything... but see, I think if I tell you about the error, (actually 2 of them) you'll probably deny it and say it isn't a problem. Then I'd copy/paste something proving your misinformation and you'll reply with your troll pics and keep on misinforming folks. Then I'd say something and have to read what you say about it and you again asking if I don't get tired of this and I'd be repeating myself saying again, that I love watching your dazzling BS thing.

    BTW, I saw another video like yours and he too has the same errors. Maybe he's a customer of yours! Or he watched your video....
  17. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,828
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Ok, lets try again, what catastrophic errors do I have in the video so I can correct them? No need to continue extending this thread with your dribble (trolling).
  18. 70runner

    70runner New Member

    Messages:
    17
    Location:
    Fallbrook, CA
    Tho I appreciate both inputs, could you guys take this somewhere else?
  19. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,135
    Location:
    Maine
    This is the only forum left that still allows Gary to post LOL

    Sorry Gary.... It was there. I couldn't let the opportunity go LOL
  20. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,828
    Location:
    Ontario California
    It is fun to read through old posts. When certain people don't chime in, the topic is quick and simple with no controversy, just good friendly advice. With a certain troll, well... you can figure it out. LOL. This thread is a perfect example, look at where it derails at post #10.

    Now lets continue to try to help these people who have a genuine interest in taking care of their water issues.
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