Please help me choose a softener for a well with iron

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by scooby074, Feb 27, 2010.

  1. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

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    Gary, as I said, until you provide the citation I will continue to believe you made them up. As to my posts about resin manufacturers specifications I recall what I said a bit differently but that is not really the point. The point is that you posted that: "The 1.5 cuft of resin has a 12 gpm SFR, exceed the 12 gpm and the resin can't remove all the hardness." You also posted: "The resin won't remove all the hardness when the constant SFR gpm of the volume of resin is exceeded."

    My concern is that these statement are misleading.

    As as been discussed in other threads the specifications for Purolite standard high capacity resin provide leakage data at 5 gpm per cubic foot of resin and even at a flow rate of 5 gpm there is hardness leakage--the resin doesn't remove all the hardness at a flow rate of 5 gpm. At higher flow rates/cubic foot hardness leakage increases.

    My concern aside I am seeking the basis for your specific quantification of the flow rates that will produce acceptable water quality in a residential setting. Also as has been discussed in other threads the objective in a typical residential application is not to remove all the hardness. The WQA rates water with less than 1 grain per gallon as "soft" even though it still contains some hardness.

    In the current thread we are discussing a 1.5 cubic foot softener and the max flow through the softener that can occur and still provide acceptable water quality. I think there is total agreement that flows greater than 5 gpm per cubic foot of resin can occur and still produce less than 1 grain of hardness.

    You are posting that if the flow exceeds 8 gpm per cubic foot of resin then "the resin can't remove all the hardness". I think what you really mean is that the water will have hardness greater than 1 grain per gallon. You have, in other threads said that the volume of resin is what determines the "SFR". You also say for a 1 cubic foot softener the SFR is 9 gpm but then you assert that the SFT for a 1.5 cubic foot softner is 12 gpm (and this equals 8 gpm/cubic foot of resin).

    So it is the inconsistencies that cause me to again ask for the source of the data you continually assert. I agree that flow rates of greater than 5 gpm/cubic foot of resin will provide acceptable water quality in a residential setting but I am unaware of data that provides a basis for saying any specific number is the cut off such as you are asserting.
  2. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    The subject of this thread is:
    Please Help me choose a softener for a well with iron. And it will get a lot of views and come up in many sereaches here in the future. So the on going discussion is appropriate.

    It's not when Every point (fixture) is used, I size as to how many people in the house, how many bathrooms and what type of tubs and showers they have and whether they are used and if so how frequently (a balance as you say) but, codes do say to count all fixtures using the fixture count method and I don't do that because consumers say they don't have all fixtures running at once, and I agree. And actually you are agreeing with what I am saying. Bob999, take note.
  3. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    That's your choice Bob but you are wrong. The figures are produced by equipment suppliers for the various sized softeners they sell. The last time I told you that you said you wouldn't use those figures. And here you are again being disagreeable simply to be disagreeable.

    Yes I did because it is for the consumption of members reading this and because when they test their water for hardness the result is converted to gpg if it is not stated as gpg. I've told you that before and here you are going on about all the hardness not being removed because there will be X ppm or mg/l still left in the water and you're pickin' nits because I said "remove all the hardness". If a dealer or service guy shows up to fix a softener, we don't test in ppm or mg/l, we test in gpg and if the test shows 0 gpg of hardness, the water is said to be soft water.

    Bob, even 18 megohm DI water, the purest water that man can make, will still have some hardness in it although I'm not sure anyone can measure that hardness in the field.

    Actually they are correct but you don't believe it.

    Actually Bob Purolite says 1-5 gpm per cuft., any ideas why they have that range?

    You could call Purolite and ask them what the leakage would be for a 1.5 cuft softener at a flow rate of 12 gpm.

    Yes, acceptable water in a residential application. And yes that's what the WQA says as all dealers doing residential softening say. I have been telling you that for months here.

    That's correct, acceptable to any residential customer. I agree that you are unaware of the data. And yes, a 1.5 cuft softener will provide acceptable water quality (0 gpg) in a residential application up to 12 gpm.

    You have never seen me say 8 gpm/cuft anywhere.

    What you don't grasp is that when you make a larger softener, that means it has more resin in a larger diameter and height tank and the resin column is spread out some as opposed to simply adding all the additional resin to the depth of the resin bed. It's the depth of the rsin bed that adds to the constant SFR, not the additional width.

    I'E. a 1 cuft is in a 9" x 48" tank and a 1.5 cuft is in a 10" x 54" tank and a 2.0 cuft is in a 12" x 52" tank etc..

    We see that AKpsdvan says he uses smaller diameter and shorter tanks and simply adds more resin.

    If you follow resin manufacturer's recommendations for a minimum 50% freeboard, he is not allowing that. The 50% means 50% of the bed depth as empty space above the resin level in the tank and is required for proper backwashing of teh resin.

    AKpsdvan then uses a Turbulator distributor tube, which means no gravel underbed can be used, and that means a higher pressure loss across the softener. The Turbulator also requires a higher DLFC gpm be used and that means the water use efficiency of that softener is much less than one without a Turbulator distributor tube. But he does agree with what I've been telling you, he just doesn't think the softener should be sized for the total of all fixtures and I agree and don't size as if all the fixtures were running at once.
  4. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

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    And yet the code in many states requires the softener to be sized as though all fixtures were in use.
  5. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    That's right so I expect you are following the code and selling very large and oversized softeners right?
  6. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

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    I appreciate your comments but you still haven't answered the basic question: What is the source of data that supports the assertions you have made?.
  7. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

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    Location:
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    The Jones family bought a nice two and a half bath home. They are both in their early 60's. so they need a softener and call around for prices. The Acme Water Co. comes in and seeing as it's just the two people with no kids, he sells them equipment based on what he calculates will be their average water use. A couple years down the road Mr. Jones drops dead of a massive stroke and Mrs. Jones sells the house to the Smith family. The Smith family has 4 kids, 2 of which are teenagers. The smith families water use is 3 times the Jones use. Suddenly the softener is way undersized. That's why we have codes and yes, I do follow them.
  8. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

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    I too would have done the unit for the house and set it up for just the couple , do that all the time....
    There are a few that come to mind that have a system that some would call over kill, but there is only 1 or 2 people there, but the next family might fill every bedroom with 1.5 people....

    Teens,,,, girls or boys.... each one could take the 20 mintue shower....2 times a day..

    So much then for the 60gallons per person per day..................that one is Out the Window ... at mach 3
  9. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

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    Location:
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    Yep and that would be the reason for codes. Now let's just say you are the unlucky guy that sold the undersized on in the first place and your company sticker is on it. And let's say Mr. Smith just happens to be a lawyer and a nasty little FU*(&R at that. Hmmmmmm, don't you wish you had gone by the code now :confused:
  10. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

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    But of course if you sell online from a no fixed address (put your favorite term here) and your goods are drop shipped from a wholesaler so there is no identification on the equipment as to who sold the equipment then it doesn't matter.
  11. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

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    Location:
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    And that will happen, and does happen and that's fine because it's the homeowner taking the liability and responsibility there.
  12. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Recalling that just a week or so ago I was being accused of selling over sized softeners... No problem here with the Smiths. Mr Jones has kept the programming information and instructions with the softener (as I've told him to), including my contact info and the Smith family only needs to reprogram for his family of 6. And if Mrs Jones has made Mr Jones throw away the packet of instructions etc., or has done it herself because as women are prone to do, she saw it hadn't been used in awhile, then Mr Smith will get on the internet and nice guys like y'all will help him program it.

    And as I tell my customers, if Mr Smith isn't happy with the softener due to an inspection etc, tell him no problem, you will remove it from the sale and that he can buy one that is satisfactory to him, or not, it's his choice, the same for the carpeting, hardwood flooring etc., etc.. I usually ask the people that call me about a softener if they would buy a vehicle based on the size of the family that might buy the vehicle when they trade or sell it. No one has said yes yet.

    BTW, what size would you sell for the Jones house?
  13. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

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    As long as the equipment can be re-programmed to work properly with the increased demand there is no problem. You would have no liability selling the equipment anyway. Only the installer would. I would size it for peak demand of the fixtures served.
  14. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    As you know, a softener can not be reprogrammed for the peak demand gpm that it has to be capable of treating, so what cuft size would that be for this Jones house that you described?
  15. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

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    Are you asking the question because you really want an answer or are you just trying to start an agrument?
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 10, 2010
  16. scooby074

    scooby074 New Member

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    Location:
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    Wow guys,
    quite a discussion since i was last here:cool: You guys sure like your softeners lol.

    Many ways to skin a cat i guess. lol.

    I havent had a chance to order my unit yet, but Thanks again for the info.
  17. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

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    Oh yea, I remember you. You were the guy that started this thing :cool:
  18. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

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    Yup,,, this thread turned into a bar fight over which truck was better,,, Ford or Chevy or Dodge......

    Even the Cops got called in to break it up.........
  19. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    The question I asked, what size softener for your Jones house, has to do with your previous comments and previous replies about what I said about sizing the softener.

    Where's the argument? I simply asked a question about what you have said.
  20. Skip Wolverton

    Skip Wolverton In the Trades

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    Ocala, Fl
    Hey.......We are not going for a Chevy, Ford or Dodge..........We are going for the Toyota.....They give you a ride for your life. LOL
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