Pipes Hammer when pump cuts out

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Randyj

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I kinda sorta think you guys got this thing whittled down to a nub. (big problem...lots of debate/discussion...and probably a fifty cent solution).
 

Sammyhydro11

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Randy,
just curious,what is the 50 cent solution?? We could become millionaires!!I'm pretty good at marketing,you have the idea,and rancher could probably fetch us coffee while we come up with a plan to sell this product! What do you think??

SAM
 
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Rancher

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Sammy, Randy said probably a 50 cent solution, but probably not if you have pull the pump and either replace it or add another checkvalve on top of it. Brass spring loaded checks are 5-10 bucks around here. And since you're the newbie with all the correct answers you buy the coffee.

Rancher
 

Valveman

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Wow! Gone a few days and have to read a book to catch up. To summerize, replaced tank, which I agree was bad, but did not fix problem. Second check at tank would probably stop water hammer on pump shut down but, hydrant would not work, and can cause a vacuum when pump is off. Second check valves usually cause water hammer on pump start up, not pump shut down. Conclusion; Check valve at pump is probably bad, replacing should fix the problem. The draw back is that you have to pull the pump. By the way, what caused the check valve to fail in the first place? Even with a good spring in a good check valve, the valve will only be open according to how much flow is moving through it. The closer the check valve is to the closed position when the pump shuts off, the less water hammer happens. Restricting the flow before the pressure tank with a valve, puts higher back pressure on the pump. Higher back pressure on the pump does not hurt anything. When the pump sees higher back pressure it just thinks it is in a deeper well. Your pipe just has to be strong enough to handle the pressure, the same as it would for a pump in a deeper well. Just check your pumps max pressure to see if your pipe is OK. As the tank is filling at 1 GPM through a CSV, the flow through the check valve is also 1 GPM. At 1 GPM the check valve is only open the width of a piece of paper, regardless of spring in the check being good or bad. When the pressure reaches 60 and the pump shuts off, you will not hear the check valve close or any subsequent water hammer. I suggest installing a CSV before the yard hydrant. If the CSV does not fix the problem, return it for a full refund. However, if the CSV does not stop the water hammer, then your bottom check is really, really bad. The check would have to have loose, broken, or missing parts. Remember when I ask what causes this problem? Like most other items in a pump system, the check valve and the bladder in the tank, where destroyed by repetitive cycling on and off of the pump. This causes the check valve to basically slam itself to death, and the tank bladder to break like repeatedly bending a wire. If it is already too late for the CSV to salvage the last remaining life left in the check valve, it will certainly keep this problem from happening again to a new check valve. The CSV will fix the root of the problem which is cycling. Anything else, including just replacing the check valve, is just a band aid.
 

Randyj

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Aw heck man... if I knew the answer I'd be in the well business rather than a lowly plumber.
 

Sammyhydro11

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You know that vacume issue w/ a check valve at the tank. Wouldn't a csv act the same as a check valve when it closes???

SAM
 

Sammyhydro11

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I still dont get the fifty cent solution rancher. Check valves for 5 to 10 bucks?? That doesn't sound like 50 cents to me. Rancher needs 2nd grade math. I'll take a small regular old man and i want my change.

SAM
 
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vaplumber

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sammyhydro11 said:
I still dont get the fifty cent solution rancher. Check valves for 5 to 10 bucks?? That doesn't sound like 50 cents to me. Rancher needs 2nd grade math. I'll take a small regular old man and i want my change.

SAM

Come on guys! Sam, learn some common english figures of speach! The "50 cent solution" is just a figure of speach for when you spend a fortune in labor to replace a part that costs only a few bucks, and for the new guys, stop taking every thing as an insult. Ive learned a lot from the people on here even after many years in the profession, and I hope to learn a lot more. Many times Ive been wrong, and yes even a little hard headed, but I have learned. Jordan, if nothing else cures the problem check out that check valve. Another suggestion I have recieved, with the pump at that depth, you may not be able to cure the hammer if the pump is hung on poly pipe. Uncap the well, turn on the water and watch to see if the pipes down the well move when the pump stops. Ive always been split half way between using a torque arrestor and not using one, but farther advice from another source tells me that if the well has poly pipe (the black flex pipe) and either no torque arrestor, or improperly installed torque arrestor, and your hammer is a "tink, tink, tink type noise, it could be cause by the torque arrestor issue, and will cause no harm other than the annoying noise.
 

Gary Slusser

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May I suggest that those PMing you be told to post instead? No one else can learn from their wealth of knowledge when they send private messages. Anyway, that's what I tell anyone that PMs me.

In 18 years as a local well pump and water treatment dealer, I worked on many wells but only one with drop pipe of another kind than PE. Additionally, I've installed thousands of pieces of water treatment equipment on many more well water systems than those where I worked on the well pump; 99% of all my water treatment work was on wells. I've been posting about wells and pumps and water treatment in Usenet newsgroups and forums for 10 years tomorrow and no one has ever blamed PE for water hammer before!

If you think about PE pipe, it is semi flexible and expands when frozen (not as much as PEX), so it will expand during a water hammer incident which would minimize the effect and sound. So.... how could it (or any type of pipe) cause water hammer!!!

Use of a torque arrestor or not is not going to cause or prevent water hammer. Torque arrestors usually cause more problems than they prevent but, water hammer happens when the water movement is stopped suddenly; and here the hammer happens at shut off of the pump, not a fixture etc.

A torque arrestor prevents rotation of the pipe and/or rubbing the pipe/pump/cable on the inside of the well rock or casing by centering the pump/cable and drop pipe in the hole.
 
R

Rancher

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sammyhydro11 said:
That rancher guy just gets me riled up.

Sammy, I apologize, it was not my intention to get you riled up.

Rancher
 

Randyj

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Just think... if I can learn 50 cents worth of good info I can use it to make millions of dollars fixing wells......
 
V

vaplumber

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Sammy, I owe you a apology as well. I need to learn not to get so defensive myself. Im sorry.

Gary, I agree with you about the poly pipe. Have never seen a problem in all of my years working with it. My suggestion came from another well man, and at this point, Im sure the man with the problem is at the point of trying anything. The well man that offered this idea says that the tink, tink, tink noise might not be water hammer, and especially if the noise has been there from day one. If it's a really quiet noise, and not a loud BANG!!, his idea is that the components in the well are moving from torque when the pump stops. He says that they would move when the pump starts too, but you wouldnt be able to hear it because of the operating pressure on the pipe down the well. Ive never heard of this, and am curious myself if it could be. Might be worth un capping that well and have a look down the hole as the pump starts and stops.
 

Valveman

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The strength of the pipe determines how fast the water hammer shock wave travels. Softer pipe like poly, bounce the shock wave off at about 3,000 feet per second. Stronger wall pipe like steel, bounce off the shock wave at about 8,000 feet per second. I agree that the softer wall poly should even absorb some of the pulse but, can’t cause water hammer. Water in motion wants to stay in motion. Water at rest wants to stay at rest. Water hammer happens when you start moving water that was at rest, or when you stop water that was moving. The slower the velocity of water when the pump shuts off, the less the check valve will slam and the less water hammer you have. Same thing is true of starting a pump. When you have tried everything and you still have a hydraulic phenomenon that causes a water hammer, try restricting the flow to 1 GPM before shutting on or off the pump. I guarantee you will not see the pipe move or hear the tink or thud when the pump is only pumping 1 GPM at time of shut off.
 

Sammyhydro11

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Yeah Rancher,
maybe we should just bury the hatchet and move on. If we don't agree on one anothers opinions,then i guess it can make for good debate as long as it doesn't get out of hand. If we could only figure out a way to make a reality show of it,then we could make some money badgering each other but until then we will play it cool.

I just hope this guy gets someone out there to fix his well problem because it sounds to me like its beyond anything he can fix himself.

SAM
 

Randyj

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Aw shucks man... ain't nobody gonna give me an apology? GEE WHIZ... I apololgize for all the bad info I give and to everyone I pee in their cornflakes.
 
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