Pin Sleeve Boxes

Discussion in 'Electrical Forum discussion & Blog' started by chefwong, May 12, 2013.

  1. chefwong

    chefwong New Member

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    How exactly are these boxes generally mounted ?
    I've yet to order the box....but wanted some info.

    [​IMG]
  2. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    Not sure what you are asking here, but like any other box sounds like a good answer.
  3. BobL43

    BobL43 DIY Senior Member

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  4. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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  5. chefwong

    chefwong New Member

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    I see top mounting holes and holes on the inside on the bottom. Surely, I don't think one is to mount the screw from inside the box to a wall ?

    The inlet is this ....
    [​IMG]

  6. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    What do you think would be wrong with the mounting nole being on the inside. We mount many enclosures with screws on the inside such as but not limited to meter base, panel. four square boxes, ect.......

    Is this installation for a portable generator?
  7. chefwong

    chefwong New Member

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    Yes, but the holes for those is a straight shot....unless they expect use to use a right angle driver to drive the screw in...

    Yes, it's for a portable generator.
    I wanted something fairly weather resistent - in use.
    I originally used a regular connector and ordered the Midwest inlet
    I received the inlet, and it was a beast in size.
    So I switched systems and went with the Hubbell Safety Shroud system and the box posted in the original post is the box I plan to use.
  8. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    Well then your concern should be the use of the generator not the use of the box.

    It is illegal to use a portable generator in the manner in which you are planning. There are several safety issues that arise with the use of portable generators when connected to the premises wiring of a building.

    Article 702 of the NEC addresses the use of optional standby systems and this is the use you are planning. Article 590 addresses temporary power systems which a portable generator fits into.

    To connect a portable generator to a building of any kind it must be connected as a SDS where the grounded (neutral) is also switched. Article 225 addresses outside feeders and branch circuits and mandates that a disconnect suitable as service equipment be use at the building and a cord and plug is not suitable as service equipment.

    Go back and read the “sticky” titled “posting here” and I will allow a couple of days for any remarks before closing this thread.
  9. chefwong

    chefwong New Member

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    Who ever said this is going to be tied to the panel ?

    This will be feeding a transfer switch.
  10. BobL43

    BobL43 DIY Senior Member

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    I hear thunder, but there is no rain in sight.:p
  11. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    Then it must be installed as a separately derived system as outlined in UL FTCN.
    http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/...n=versionless&parent_id=1076539962&sequence=1


    ARTICLE 225 Outside Branch Circuits and Feeders
    II. Buildings or Other Structures Supplied by a Feeder(s) or Branch Circuit(s)
    225.31 Disconnecting Means.
    Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that supply or pass through the building or structure.
    225.36 Suitable for Service Equipment.
    The disconnecting means specified in 225.31 shall be suitable for use as service equipment.

    ARTICLE 702 Optional Standby Systems
    702.5 Transfer Equipment.
    Transfer equipment shall be suitable for the intended use and designed and installed so as to prevent the inadvertent interconnection of normal and alternate sources of supply in any operation of the transfer equipment. Transfer equipment and electric power production systems installed to permit operation in parallel with the normal source shall meet the requirements of Article 705 .
    Transfer equipment, located on the load side of branch circuit protection, shall be permitted to contain supplemental overcurrent protection having an interrupting rating sufficient for the available fault current that the generator can deliver. The supplementary overcurrent protection devices shall be part of a listed transfer equipment.
    Transfer equipment shall be required for all standby systems subject to the provisions of this article and for which an electric utility supply is either the normal or standby source.

    702.12 Outdoor Generator Sets.
    Where an outdoor housed generator set is equipped with a readily accessible disconnecting means located within sight of the building or structure supplied, an additional disconnecting means shall not be required where ungrounded conductors serve or pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall meet the requirements of 225.36.


    As one can see there is far more to this than just making it work. Those plugs and portable generators have their place but to be used in conjunction with the wiring of our homes is not the place.


    EDITED TO ADD;

    Unless the transfer switch is suitable as service equipment then landing the cord and plug to the transfer switch is illegal. If the transfer switch is suitable for service equipment then it cost as much as the generator.

    The use of panel door transfers is a game of Russian Roulette. Over the life of my electrical experience I have ran into many breakers that would either not open at all or only open one side of the breaker. In such a case the service drop would be back feeding the transformer on the pole or pad putting the life of the utility linesman in grave danger.

    There is a reason for the codes and that reason is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.
    Last edited: May 14, 2013
  12. chefwong

    chefwong New Member

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    You lost me at Hello JW....

    Sorry, but in laymans terms....what exactly is wrong with the common transfer panels from Reliance, Generac, etc - that I presume we are discussing about ?
  13. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    If you are having a problem reading post #11 then you should not be messing with a portable generator and the wiring of a home.

    Separately Derived System. A premises wiring system whose power is derived from a source of electric energy or equipment other than a service. Such systems have no direct connection from circuit conductors of one system to circuit conductors of another system, other than connections through the earth, metal enclosures, metallic raceways, or equipment grounding conductors

    In a SDS the neutral is switched along with the hot conductors. In the link to the UL White Book portable generators are to be connected to the wiring system of a building as a SDS or the transfer MUST also switch the neutral.

    Those small six to twelve circuit panels from Reliance do not switch the neutral therefore are not legal for the installation with portable generators.

    When the cord from the generator lands at the building Article 225 says that the conductors MUST land in a disconnect that is suitable as service equipment. The cord and plug is not service rated nor are the small panels from the generator companies.

    I have a GE 30 amp breaker that has a UL listing. I have a roll of #14 NM-B cable that has a UL listing. Can you tell me why I can’t install a circuit using the 30 amp breaker and the #14 conductors? The same rules apply to portable generators. Just because something has a UL listing in no way means that it can be installed in any other manner than what the codes and the listing of the equipment allows. Read the link in post #11.
  14. BobL43

    BobL43 DIY Senior Member

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    None of us here really want to argue code with you nor profess to know it as well as you do, and absolutely none of us want to be the cause of a lineman getting electrocuted. I'm sure every one of us to the very hardest nose of us would hate ourselves for the rest of our life if we caused the death of a lineman. If a store sells portable generators and also sells transfer panels supposedly to be used with them, they are doing a dis-service to everybody. Your example of a store selling the listed 30 amp breaker and 14 gauge wire is different. Lumber yards sell lumber and nails. Got to use the correct size nails and fasteners to do the job. The exact job determines the lumber and fasteners needed. If you go to HD and buy generator and they sell you at the same time a power transfer panel that is not safe to use per code, then they should be stopped from selling these items and be responsible for damages.

    So you are saying that a licensed electrician doing residential work would not install a transfer panel as Chef and you described, on a home for a portable generator. I'm not asking what a homeowner would do, because many homeowners should not be allowed to change a lightbulb, let alone install a system like this.

    Several years ago I was sent to one of our customers in Michigan to troubleshoot a problem on their multimillion dollar machine system built by my company. When I got there,
    the first thing they did was turn off the main panel that fed power to my machine because I removed the cover from our control panel so I could access the relay logic and inverter drives. They told me that MIOSHA fined them recently for running a machine with a panel open. I told them that they deserved that fine, but I also told them that in order for me to troubleshoot their problem, I needed the power on. They allowed me to proceed when I started packing up my tools to leave. Sometimes, just sometimes the rules are a bit TOO much, but they are necessary.
  15. DonL

    DonL Banned

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    What Bob says is true, and I agree.


    The problem that I see with the switch over panels, is that they are Normally for permanent Installs and Not Temporary. Do you have a web link for the one you will be using ?

    The Gen you plan to use is made for Temporary use, that is why it has a Twist Lock and is not direct wired.

    Make sure you have a Disconnect that disconnects all conductors from the main Line feed, It needs to do that.

    Or Run Extension cords for what you want to power.


    What is safer ? Depends, on JW's Approval.


    Be careful playing with electricity.
    Last edited: May 15, 2013
  16. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    Here in lies a lot of liability for a homeowner or an electrical contractor. Safety must always come first in everything we do or we could end up in court trying to explain ourself
    Not to mention any legal cost or penalties.
    Same store sells 2X4s and 4 penny finish nails. Is this a dis-service?
    How is it different? Are you saying that your knowledge tells you this would be wrong but if you do not have the knowledge about something then it is different?
    This is exactly what I said but I used electrical equipment instead of lumber and nails.
    So you are saying that they should be punished for your lack of knowledge? Should they be stopped from selling 2X10s and finish nails to the same customer?

    What I am saying is the codes allow for a proper installation and just because something works in no way means that it is proper. Without knowledge of what one is undertaking it will never be correct.

    OSHA in 1910.333 and NFPA 70E mandate that if one is checking voltages or doing any other electrical testing that they wear the proper PPE. I have fired many who worked for me for not complying with the rules.

    Any electrical system weather temporary or permanent is required to be connect by the use of a transfer switch that prevents the energizing of both systems at once.

    This is correct and should be used with cords that plugs each appliance in one at a time

    Or Run Extension cords for what you want to power is the safest and cheapest way to use one of these type generators.


    It in no way depends on my approval but it does need the approval of any adopted codes.

    So many times people will make electrical installations without any thought of the available fault current imposed on the overcurrent devices or the path of any ground faults.
    If the AIC (available fault current) of the circuit breakers is 10,000 amps but the generator has an AIC of 20,000 amps then the circuit breakers are not worth the air they take up.

    The path for any fault current cannot have more than one path and can be bonded at only one place. With the generator connected to the house wiring the path for any fault current is to the service panel where it will split and travel back to the generator on both the neutral (white wire in the cord) and the Supply side bonding jumper (the green wire in the cord) energizing the frame of the generator. Wonder what would be the outcome if someone was touching the frame the instant this happened?

    Any generator of 15kw or less manufactured or remanufactured after 01-01-11 is required to have all receptacles on the generator GFCI protected. This means that the only way to connect this generator to a premises wiring system using the method being discussed would only cause the GFCI to trip.

    It is permissible to use a trailer mounted generator (guess what? These are portable generators also) using the methods outlined in this thread but to use a generator bought at a big box stores and connect them to a premises wiring system would cost more than the generator and the short answer is no those multi-circuit transfer switches are not allowed.
  17. BobL43

    BobL43 DIY Senior Member

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    This is the time for the Fat Lady to sing; So WHERE are you?
  18. DonL

    DonL Banned

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    Last time I seen her she was at the Nascar Race eating popcorn.

    popcorn.gif
  19. BobL43

    BobL43 DIY Senior Member

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    I saw her at the Met last. Viking hat and all.
  20. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    Gentlemen, there is a right way and a wrong way to do things and as pointed out many times the wrong way is not allowed on the forum.

    The Department of Consumer and Regulatory Affairs for the District of Columbia regulates the permits and inspections of any electrical work done in their area. It is not a matter of what we have seen, what others do, or what we want but instead it is a matter of code compliance.

    Chefwong has asked a question that needs more than an answer to the question before he gets into something that will end up costing him in the end. It is only proper and fit to give him the information he needs to achieve his goals instead of blindly saying, “I have seen it done that way for years.”

    Many fine folks across this nation are doing installations that in the future will not work simply due to the changing of the rules every three years. The rule for a self-contained generator manufactured or rebuilt after January the first of the year of our Lord two thousand eleven will not work on this type of installation as the required GFCI will not hold.

    Unless the generator is listed for installation in inclement weather the use of the generator on the outside of the building will result in a generator that is a good boat anchor.

    110.3(B) of the NEC states the following; (B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.
    What are the installation instructions for stand-alone generators? Look at the link in my earlier post and see.
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