PEX vs. CPVC...should I find a new plumber?

[cshore50]

Hi! I'm new to this forum and need some advice to plumbing pros. I live in a modular home that is about 11 years old. In the past 3 years, I have needed some plumbing work done on leaky connectors on my PEX piping. Each time the plumber recommends that I have him re-pipe my entire system with CPVC pipes. Everything I have read online says that PEX is better, but my plumber disagrees. Today he told me that PEX is no longer being made in the US. Not sure if this is true. Should I consult another plumber? Thanks in advance.

 

[Terry]

He may be thinking of Polybutene.
There is plenty of PEX being used.
What color is the piping that you have now?

From the old forum pages.

POLY DOCTOR on February 13, 2000 We are trying to sell a house with Vanguard thermoguard poly piping. The inspector pointed out four fittings with copper crimp rings as a problem. The others with just a plastic connector he seemed to feel were OK. Should I just get these fittings replaced? The feeds in to the manobloc unit also have copper crimps.

: Our buyers were spooked by the whole thing especially the class action suit and have talked about pulling out. Is there anyway to reassure them that the rest of the piping is OK - we have no leaks. If we loose them what do I need to do to get the piping through an inspection in the future. Do most inspectors regard PB as a major problem? Most people I\'ve spoken to say it\'s just the fittings and that the new ones are OK.

RESONSE: The home inspector does not know exactly what he is talking about. Coppper fittings are certainly better than plastic. The plastic acetal fittings react with the water and break down much quicker than the pipe or copper fittings. But to replace just the fittings, you will need to do a lot of work cutting into walls to find all of the fittings. It does not pay. If you are going to do that, you might as well replace all of the pipe.

If you replace all of the pipe with copper or PEX, your house is worth more. You can also arrange to split this cost with a buyer and include the cost in the selling price, so they can incorporate the job into the mortgage. And if you need any painting or any plumbing work done, you will get it done for a lot less at the time you are doing your repipe.

If you have had leaks, you may qualify for free replacement. If you have no leaks and a plastic fitting, you will qualify for a partial replacement reimbursement through the Spencer lawsuit. All of the links are below.

If you need a referral for a contractor in your area, please feel free to contact us at poly_doctor@hotmail.com.

Comprehensive and FACTUAL Information Site for Polybutylene Information, Class Action Links and Contractor Opportunities. This site hides nothing and is here to HELP you - http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/polybutyleneplumbing

There are some sites that appear to be providing you with complete information about polybutylene. Some of these are commercial sites in the poly replacement business. They tell you what they want you to know. In fact, they do not even want you to have the class action phone numbers, even though they claim to be information sites with complete information. A better name would be Poly Info Limited for these sites. When you do see them posting a class action phone number some of these sites it is generally for someone that has already missed the deadline for filing. For example, you will see them post the phone numbers for the class actions when it is an exterior line that is older than 10 years old. If it is less than 10 years old or they are not sure, they will direct you to their site and try to sell you the job for the highest price possible.

If you do not qualify for the class action suits do NOT simply let a contractor tell you there are no alternatives. We can provide you with alternative solutions, as well as a list of top contractors to get estimates from. You certainly need more than one or two estimates and several referrals. We will also tell you the questions to ask your contractor to make sure they have crews that are qualified to do the work in your home. For example, make sure you ask any contractor if he has left a job and the house caught fire from hotspots they left in the walls. This is a very key question.

Also be sure to ask all companies for a few phone numbers of the references or testimonials they show you. Don\'t let them select which ones if they are featured on a website. Just ask them for the names and phone numbers of the ones you want to call. You may find some surprises.

Consumer Plumbing Recovery Center - 800-356-3496 - http://www.pbpipe.com

 

[Sponsor]

 

[cshore50]

He may be thinking of Polybutene.
There is plenty of PEX being used.
What color is the piping that you have now?

The piping that I have now is an opaque white. I have gotten good service from this plumber before, but maybe the owner of the company isn't fond of PEX or unwilling to buy the proper tools to work with it. I really can't afford the $2600. to replace my piping. I hope there is another solution. (short of moving!!)

 

[Mark Melton]

Are the leaky connectors easily visible/accessible?

 

[cshore50]

No...they are under the house and only accessible by crawling into the crawlspace. I have only been able to get in about 3 feet. I actually feel bad for the plumber who has to climb in there.

 

[Dj2]

Quote: "In the past 3 years, I have needed some plumbing work done on leaky connectors on my PEX piping."

Every time it happens, is it the same connector or another one?

 

[Mark Melton]

I know the most common thing that causes pex to leak is

-not cutting the pipe square
-under/over tightening of the clamp.

 

[cshore50]

Quote: "In the past 3 years, I have needed some plumbing work done on leaky connectors on my PEX piping."

Every time it happens, is it the same connector or another one?

Each time it is a different one, although one time there was also a pinhole leak in the line itself. Plumber told me that the connectors were corroding...home is only 11 years old.

 

[cshore50]

I know the most common thing that causes pex to leak is

-not cutting the pipe square
-under/over tightening of the clamp.

Maybe the entire system was installed poorly...But wouldn't replacing the connectors a more cost effective fix compared to re-piping the entire thing?

 

[Magneto]

Hi! I'm new to this forum and need some advice to plumbing pros. I live in a modular home that is about 11 years old. In the past 3 years, I have needed some plumbing work done on leaky connectors on my PEX piping. Each time the plumber recommends that I have him re-pipe my entire system with CPVC pipes. Everything I have read online says that PEX is better, but my plumber disagrees. Today he told me that PEX is no longer being made in the US. Not sure if this is true. Should I consult another plumber? Thanks in advance.

So what your plumber is talking about strictly refers to his paycheck. These people insist on replacing every system with CPVC for a nice paycheck and no other satisfactory reason. They'll claim PEX is horrible, not made in America, faulty material, yet all the facts seem to claim otherwise. It's really been ticking me off lately that plumbers who don't know the facts behind their words seem to throw them around so often.

CPVC is a dying pipe, straight and simple. Although its effectiveness in the past, people have strayed away from it in recent times. Most plumbers would rather connect a few crimps, clamps, expansion rings, etc. then glue a CPVC connection and have to wait an hour for it to dry. Then worry about the glue deteriorating or dissolving due to a weather condition or other natural effect.

I used to love CPVC, used it all the time, lately I have found PEX to be the more suitable option. It's cheaper for the customers, easier to install for the plumber. You can see a good connection is made with your eyes, you can't do that with glue. Here's a little read for you, nothing like reading a healthy article. http://www.canarsee.com/pex-vs-cpvc-pipe

I suggest you get another plumber to review your original plumbers PEX connections. Those connections should stay intact for atleast 25 years without a problem. Not too mention PEX's longevity stands at a higher rate than PVC and PB. It is even up there with copper at a life span of 50-100 years. PEX has proven itself worldwide before coming to America that is why it took so long to get here. Since 1970, PEX had been used in Europe, and now that someone can't get rich off you they say it's faulty.

See the one smart thing your plumber said was that most of it isn't made in America, that's true. What you must realize is that all PEX tubing has to be NSF certified, and pass the standards set by the ASTM. This means that it will correspond to its necessary standards, the only thing from here is making proper secure connections, and running the tubing accordingly.

Do not re-pipe your system unless you want to write a blank check, my advice is do some more research and get a new plumber. Tell him you want him to inspect your PEX plumbing system, and see what he can find. Good luck with your leaks.

 

[AliInBaltimore]

Thanks for this great thread! I've also run into the PEX vs CPVC conundrum recently, with my current plumber a huge CPVC fan. He likes many features of CPVC. ("It has flex.") But his main gripe: The vast majority of his leak repairs are for faulty PEX installs. He says he has no choice but to go with his experience, and I can't blame him.

Also, I've used PEX in "hobbyist", non-plumbing applications. I know the Apollo brand is made in China, but I'm almost certain the brand I purchase at Home Depot is made in the USA.

 

[Jadnashua]

People that are afraid of soldering look to an easier solution. Gluing things together seems simple. Crimping a fitting into pex seems simple. But, there are still important steps that must be performed to verify it is done well and will last. THen, there have been batches of defective pex fittings that ended up eventually cracking and some defective pex that split along its length (not to say that there hasn't been bad batches of lots of things!). But, assuming that isn't the issue, probably the biggest issue is not allowing for expansion/contraction and improper installation of fittings. FWIW, there are two methods commonly used to attach fittings to pex: the system that Uphonor (Wirsbo) pioneered that uses a tool to expand the end of the tubing, then inserting the fitting, and a type that uses a cinch ring to hold the fitting in. The former has advantages: as long as you make your tubing cut square to the end and position it fully onto the fitting, the natural tendency of the tubing is to hold the fitting in place. To reinforce that, they use a ring of the same material around the end of the tubing (that must be positioned properly) to help hold things in place. With a crimp or cinch system, you must position the crimp at the proper position over the barbs of the fitting, and it must be not too tight and not too loose. On most systems, they make a go:no-go tool to verify it is compressed properly. Ignoring that, bad things can happen.

If flexibility is an issue, pex would win, hands down! A big installation issue with pex is when they try to install it like rigid copper, and use tons of fittings. This negates most of the advantages, as fittings are not an inexpensive portion of the install. But, a typical pex install can look 'sloppy' since it does not like to run straight! Ideally, it would only have one fitting at the supply take off, and another where it goes into the desired fixture. Something that is impossible with CPVC or rigid copper. When done in that manner, much fewer chances of failure, and, cheaper to install as cutting and affixing fittings takes time and money verses pulling the tubing into place on a home run (branch it if you need to).

 

[Ballvalve]

I put PEX into my house when I built it in 97'. Perhaps 2500' for Radiant heat. They did not permit it for fixtures then, so I used heavy wall copper there. I plumbed a few houses here in California after 99 when it was allowed for all uses. Everyone is a slave to Uphonors ridiculous plastic compression ring system. I used it and hate it. Breaks your hands unless you want to pay a bunch for the electric ones. If you use the SS crimp clamps you can plumb up the whole house before y0u close the clamps. Never had a leak in miles of Pex with the SS crim clamps by Oetiker. Fantastic system and product. I manifold off to each fixture because the pipe is so cheap. Most of it, including Uphonors are made in the USA by German companies.

I don't like the go-no go- soft steel compression rings. Bad engineering. The Oetikers have some flex built in and can be easily removed and changed.

 

[Magneto]

You guys are absolutely right. The ease of installation is what has people consistently coming back. If done properly and installed by licensed professionals, then there should be no reason that any fault or defects in the system are found. I'm personally not a fan of uponor. For one their PEX sells for almost as much as copper. For installation trunk and branching method has to be my favorite. Running one continuous line from the manifold just doesn't seem like the right thing to do. Compression rings are nonsense, crimp rings on the other hand seem to be the best available option.