PEX-a sources?

Users who are viewing this thread

Guy48065

Member
Messages
196
Reaction score
5
Points
18
Location
SE and north MI
Menards' website shows they carry PEX-a "PowerPEX" tube from Sioux Chief. I'm not familiar with SC as a tubing mfr so I went to their website where they show the PowerPEX line is a type-b tube. Is their site outdated or is Menards being shammy?

In my area (S.E. Michigan) Home Depot and Lowes still have squat for PEX.
 

Jadnashua

Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
Messages
32,770
Reaction score
1,190
Points
113
Location
New England
I know that Uphonor makes PEX-A. No idea about Sioux Chief's offerings. The advantage of PEX-A verses PEX-B, or PEX-C, is that -A is more flexible, has higher cross-linking, has a smaller minimum bend radius, and is the only one that should be considered for use with pex expansion fittings (but those are best chosen to match the tubing manufacturer to maintain proper warranty coverage). Also, PEX-A is the only version that can be recovered from a kink created during installation without having to cut out the kink and replace with a fitting.
 

Guy48065

Member
Messages
196
Reaction score
5
Points
18
Location
SE and north MI
Let me put a different spin on my question: Can I assume it doesn't matter what type tube since NONE of the retail stores mention it?

Related question: at Lowe's there are coils and sticks of Apollo brand with the same sku no. that are either translucent color, or opaque with a black lining. Exact same thing despite the appearance? One better than the other?
 

FullySprinklered

In the Trades
Messages
1,897
Reaction score
208
Points
63
Location
Georgia
Type "a" makes the other stuff look like crap. Unrolls easier, straightens out better, cuts easier, and bends tighter.
 
Last edited:

Guy48065

Member
Messages
196
Reaction score
5
Points
18
Location
SE and north MI
Is type a brand new...not approved in some areas...not best for some applications...? I don't understand why it's not more available. Meanards claims to carry it--but only in white. I hate to delay re-plumbing my cottage while I wait for an online purchase to arrive but if it's really that superior...
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,880
Reaction score
4,433
Points
113
Location
IL
PEX A is more expensive. I suggest you search for pex a b c in your favorite search engine.
 

FullySprinklered

In the Trades
Messages
1,897
Reaction score
208
Points
63
Location
Georgia
We're doing the Uponor/Wirsbro/Aquapex/ system. Not sure what they're calling themselves this week, but it's probably Aquapex. It's the one that uses the expansion tool to make connections, and the pex-a is the only material that should be used for this method.
Customer bought the tool and supplied the materials and generally did all the research and planning for the job. That's the "we" I'm talking about. There's 14 fixtures switched over so far and we haven't used any elbows at all. There's a curve bracket that the pipe snaps into to make 90 degree turns so there's no constriction there to slow the flow of water.
It's real fast and easy, but the down side is having to order the materials ahead of time. Planning ahead is not what I do best, and I'm somewhat spoiled by the fact that there's a HD on every corner here in metro Atlanta. None carry pex-a to my knowledge.
 

Jadnashua

Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
Messages
32,770
Reaction score
1,190
Points
113
Location
New England
The first pex tubing that was ever made was designated pex-A when they eventually came out with the other methods, and needed a way to differentiate them. As far as I know, there are only three, which added -B and -C. Now, that does not include some of the features you may need depending on circumstances like an oxygen barrier or colors (makes it easier to sort out say hot from cold when running lots of tubing around). They are a designation that indicates the manufacturing process, and each one has somewhat variable characteristics. The reason there isn't a lot of pex-A made is that it IS the most expensive process and most people buy based on prices, not always looking into their actual characteristics. If you do, you will likely consider pex-A. My personal take on this, the fittings that use an expander are less likely to be installed incorrectly and rely on simply the tubing doing what it does best...returning to it's original size which compresses itself around the fitting. On all of those that use crimps, you're restricting the flow a bit, but the skill required, although not hard, will result in more potential errors in installation. It also is working against the natural tendency of the tubing to return to it's original shape. The location of the crimp and how much it is actually crimped all play into whether it works. Getting an expander tool into cramped spaces may be harder than using a crimping tool, and unless you have a powered expander tool, you'll have sore hands and forearms unless you use one regularly since it IS a workout.
 

Guy48065

Member
Messages
196
Reaction score
5
Points
18
Location
SE and north MI
Hold on. .. You're not actually saying the crimps and cinches constrict the flow, are you? That would mean they reduce the ID of the fitting they are clamped to. I don't think that's happening.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,880
Reaction score
4,433
Points
113
Location
IL
Hold on. .. You're not actually saying the crimps and cinches constrict the flow, are you? That would mean they reduce the ID of the fitting they are clamped to. I don't think that's happening.
If the fitting fits inside of the un-expanded pipe, that means that the fitting has reduced the diameter from what the pipe ID is. See xCwxbT_hhFQ on Youtube.
 

Guy48065

Member
Messages
196
Reaction score
5
Points
18
Location
SE and north MI
If the fitting fits inside of the un-expanded pipe, that means that the fitting has reduced the diameter from what the pipe ID is. See xCwxbT_hhFQ on Youtube.
Completely missed the point. ProPEX vs. crimps vs. cinches ALL secure tube to fittings. Jim says the expansion system is less restricting--how does it accomplish that?

...On all of those that use crimps, you're restricting the flow a bit...
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,880
Reaction score
4,433
Points
113
Location
IL
Completely missed the point. ProPEX vs. crimps vs. cinches ALL secure tube to fittings. Jim says the expansion system is less restricting--how does it accomplish that?

The expansion type fits over a bigger fitting diameter that has a bigger ID. From http://www.coptool.com/pex-system-rundown-uponor-propex-vs-viega-pureflow/
A representative for Uponor add “Expanding the tubing allows the use of a larger-diameter fitting, which minimizes restrictions and allows higher flow rates. For 1" tubing connections, Uponor’s ProPEX fitting has 12% greater internal diameter (i.d.) and 25% greater gallons-per-minute (gpm) flow rate than an insert fitting.​
 

Jadnashua

Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
Messages
32,770
Reaction score
1,190
Points
113
Location
New England
Simple...when you use a crimp or cinch ring, you have to get the fitting in there first. With the expansion system, there's no way it will fit in there unless you expand the tubing first (and you can't wait forever to get it there, either!), since, the material's memory will have the tubing collapse onto the fitting to make the seal (only takes a few seconds). If you make the assumption (this tends to be true) that for the required strength, the wall of the fitting must be similar between the two installation methods, because the OD of an expansion fitting is larger, its ID is as well. Because the area of the opening is calculated by squaring the radius, any small difference is the square of the difference, not just the linear difference - IOW, a small difference makes a much bigger difference in the area of the opening in the fitting and its ability to flow the liquid.

So, to me, given that info, the fact that pex-A (the only one that allows expansion fittings because of the MUCH higher cross-linking in the plastic material's internal structure) is more flexible, and has a smaller minimum bend radius, it lends itself to use with fewer fittings in more locations than the competitors. Fittings tend to add up, and could offset at least some of the differences in tubing costs on a well planned installation.

You could install pex as if it were rigid copper with fittings everywhere, and I've seen some people do that. A very poor and expensive way to go...all of those fittings DO add to the friction when using water. One of the big advantages of pex over say copper is when installed with (ideally no intermediate) fittings except at each end, the friction losses mean you may not notice any flow decrease with the comparable sized copper. If you're stressing the system, you could measure it unless you went totally whacko on changes of direction with copper, but it would usually be there.
 

Guy48065

Member
Messages
196
Reaction score
5
Points
18
Location
SE and north MI
Holy Betamax, Batman--2 incompatible fittings systems?? That's really not a good idea. And--like Beta--the first system (Type a) is "better" and costs more, the later is "good enough" and far cheaper. Taking bets on who prevails?
I've been in HD, Lowes, Menards, ACE and a large local plumbing supply looking at this stuff. Only Menards carried the Pex-a fittings and they cost so much more (with NO explanation why) that I grabbed the much cheaper Nibco and no-brand fittings. The "old fashioned" plumbing supply/warehouse also didn't have Pex-a fittings OR tubing--and wasn't aware there are 3 types of PEX (a little TOO old-school perhaps!).
 

Jadnashua

Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
Messages
32,770
Reaction score
1,190
Points
113
Location
New England
If higher flexibility and less restriction is important, then your choice should be pex-a. The others work, it's just up to you what is most important.
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks