P trap into end of waste line (now an S trap)

[PaulNY]

Hello, 1st time post. Not a professional plumber by any means, but have a general knowledge of plumbing.
I am currently at the end of remodeling 2 bathrooms and having a contractor do all the work.
I apologize if my terminology or descriptions are a bit off.. I can try to clarify as needed.
There are 3 bathrooms in the house. House is an L shaped ranch, 1 bathroom (call it guest 2 - not being redone) near one end of the L and the other 2 (Guest 1 and Master) near the opposite end of the L. Unfinished basement so all subfloor plumbing is basically visible from the basement.
Main waste line runs from Guest 2, makes a 90 degree turn and heads toward the other two bathrooms (other side of the L). Secondary waste line (maybe not the correct term) services the Master and Guest 1 and joins the Main waste line which then exits the house.

Issue with Guest 1:
The Guest 1 bathroom has single sink, toilet and shower.
My contractor had the shower drain P trapped directly into the end of the waste line (no vent on shower drain - there is a vent further down the waste line) (attached picture). About a foot or less away from the end of the waste line the toilet waste pipe (which I believe the guest 1 sink also ties into) enters the secondary waste line via sanitary tee (can be seen in the picture). The guest shower does not get used often (maybe once a week, sometimes less). Noticed a sewage smell in the guest bathroom.. it was emanating from the shower drain. Appeared to be dirty water in the drain.. does not appear the trap lost it's water seal at all. Do not believe there is any blockage in the waste line and also had the septic pumped recently (beginning of November). I notice a good bit of movement in the water in the shower drain trap when flushing the toilet. (did not seem to pull water from the shower drain, more so pushing the water as it just appears to rise in the shower drain, then settle back) I believed some of the waste water was getting into the trap. Flushed the trap out with a bucket of water. About a week and 1/2 after no use of the guest shower, but some use of the toilet, noticed brown water again, some debris and what appeared to be some toilet paper (not positive, if it was TP, should have pulled it out before I cleared the drain again, but I believe the shower drain trap water should have been clear and free of debris either way). Might be a venting issue, not sure. Had spoken with my contractor about it and I thought it would be best to run the shower drain differently. My thought was to run the shower drain line parallel to the secondary waste line, then drop it into the main waste line further along. Possibly adding an AAV along the shower drain if needed, or tie it into the last vent in the waste line (vent is just before it exits the house, can be seen in the last picture.. Master bath tub drain with AAV is tied into it). Contractor thought that would work and agreed and said he would take a look and change the plumbing. He said he completed the plumbing and I come home a couple f days later to see he has just turned the P trap into an S trap.
As I understood it, S traps are not to code (haven't been for some time) and should not be used due to possibility of syphoning the water out of the trap, breaking the water seal. Looking for some advice how to best drain this shower as I don't want to leave an S trap there (yes, it may never be a problem, but the fact that I am paying someone a good deal of money to have it done correctly, I shouldn't have to ever worry about it).
I can take more pictures tomorrow night and show the S trap that has been newly installed.
Any suggestions, help, advice is much appreciated.

Thanks
Paul

 

[Terry]

I'm not seeing an S-trap there.
What I do see are santees for waste when they should be wye fittings. A santee doesn't direct waste away, it splits it and it can disperse both ways on the horizontal.
A toilet dropping into the santee on it's back will disperse both directions, forcing solids upstream.
Mixing ABS and PVC isn't a good idea either. They should have used transition fittings there. I use shielded couplings for that to prevent shifting of the pipes.
So you have a handyman doing the plumbing, and it looks like handyman plumbing.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[PaulNY]

Thanks, that is what I thought.. to note, all the black (ABS) is original with the house, the white is what he installed.
The picture is the initial install which was a p trap. He came back and did the S trap the other day and I saw it last night, but didn't take a picture. I will post a picture tomorrow night of the new S trap.
The toilet waste line was a santee already, but there was nothing behind it, just the end of the waste line. The shower drain was moved and that is when my contractor tied it into the end of waste line. Not replacing the santee toilet waste pipe connection with a wye was a mistake.
So as you see the picture, if toilet waste pipe had a wye instead of a santee, would the p trap going into the end of the waste line be ok?
I couldn't figure out why he didn't just use ABS (not to mention keeping it all black would be more aesthetically pleasing as well, but more concerned with failure down the line) Should I have him redo it all with ABS?

 

[PaulNY]

or better yet, have a licensed plumber come in and do it correctly and deduct that amount from what I owe him.

 

[PaulNY]

Here is a picture a little further down the waste line where the Master toilet waste pipe and shower drain go into the waste line.
Looks like the toilet waste pipe is connected to the waste line with a santee and shower drain is connected with a wye.. I assume the toilet waste pipe should have been connected to the waste line with a wye as well?

 

[Terry]

The toilet should have been a wye.
The couplings are the wrong type.
The shower should have a vent before it enters the line. I may have one but it's out of the picture.

 

[PaulNY]

Thanks Terry!!
No, the shower drain has no vent.. drain comes right down into P trap (now an S trap) and goes right into the waste line.
So if you had to redo the shower drain, is it possible to have it come down and have the P trap 90 degrees clockwise from how it is in the picture, then run the drain line parallel to the waste line with an AAV and drop it in to the main waste line via a 45 or possibly, no AAV and tye it into the final vent (the one you see the master bath drain tied into)
Sadly I'm starting to feel like I know more about plumbing then my contractor and that is not a good thing
Yes, and my fault for not vetting him properly (he was a recommendation from 2 different friends, his tile and finish work is good) and assuming some things instead of doing my due diligence.

 

[CountryBumkin]

I am currently at the end of remodeling 2 bathrooms and having a contractor do all the work.

Did anyone pull a permit for this work? If yes, the Inspector will make sure it is correct. I doubt it because the work doesn't look professional.

If don't you pull a permit, your screwing yourself in the long run. You maybe saving a couple of dollars on not having to pay for a permit - but when you go to sell this house you will have to disclose any work done by yourself or without a permit (it's part of the seller's disclosure form). And no one is going buy your house (or pay market value) when they find out major work was done by homeowner without permits.

Get rid of the guy you have now, and hire a professional. Then do all the other work you are capable of yourself (with the proper permits).
Good luck. I wish you the best.


EDIT: meant to say "if you don't"

 

[hj]

It looks like he installed an AAV on the shower drain where that tee is located.

 

[PaulNY]

Did anyone pull a permit for this work? If yes, the Inspector will make sure it is correct. I doubt it because the work doesn't look professional.

If you pull a permit, your screwing yourself in the long run. You maybe saving a couple of dollars on not having to pay for a permit - but when you go to sell this house you will have to disclose any work done by yourself or without a permit (it part of the seller's disclosure form). And no one is going buy your house (or pay market value) when they find out major work was done by homeowner without permits.

Get rid of the guy you have now, and hire a professional. Then do all the other work you are capable of yourself (with the proper permits).
Good luck. I wish you the best.

Thanks for the advice.. my desire was not to save money or bypass permits. My plan is to confirm with my contractor if he knows whether his work is to code or not, then hire a professional plumber to assess and correct the plumbing. I have no plan of ever selling the house, but regardless, I want everything done right and to code requirements. I screwed up on this project by not doing my due diligence and making assumptions.

 

[PaulNY]

It looks like he installed an AAV on the shower drain where that tee is located.

Hi hj, thanks for responding. Are you referring to the AAV in the 3rd picture of my initial post?
Picture labeled mastertubdrain-with-aav-into-final-vent-jpg.
If so, that is the drain for the Master bath tub that ties into the vent of the main waste line just prior to where the waste line exits the house.
The first 2 pictures are showing the drain for the guest shower. It has no vent on it before it connects into the end of the secondary waste line(not sure if that is the correct terminology).
The P trap on the guest shower drain is now an S trap... (I'll add a picture tomorrow night when I am back at the house)
When I noticed the issue of waste water getting into the guest shower trap, I spoke to my contractor about correcting it. I gave him my thoughts of not going into the secondary waste line at the end where it currently is, but running the guest shower drain parallel to the secondary waste line, then tying it in to the main waste line, possibly with an AAV if other venting is not possible... he said that sounded viable and would look at it and figure it out.. I'm not a plumber, so I expected him to flesh it out and correct the issue properly.
When I got home a couple of days after he told me he "fixed" it, what I came home to was a P trap replaced with an S trap, which we never discussed and I would never have considered as an option.

 

[hj]

If that tee by the shower trap is NOT an AAV, what is it?

 

[CountryBumkin]

I'm not a plumber, but this just doesn't look right to my untrained eyes. Lots of wasted space - even if this area is just used for storage, IMO, this could have been done better. I hope everything turns out okay for you. Good luck.

 

[Reach4]

I note that you have a whole house trap (marked E in picture and marked with a yellow curve) . That is not the norm today.

I don't know if this could relate to your symptom. I am wondering if the septic tank could build pressure until it burps past the whole house trap. Then a pressure wave of sewer gas comes out, and maybe not all of it comes out of the roof vent. With a whole house trap, you would need a vent on the septic side of that trap. Do you have such a vent?

 

[PaulNY]

If that tee by the shower trap is NOT an AAV, what is it?

Hi hj,thanks for the reply. Can you confirm which picture you are referring to?
I am uploading the picture showing the guest shower drain/trap again. The shower drain comes straight down for about 1 foot and then p trap (now actually an s trap that I will update with a picture tonight) goes straight into the end of the waste line.
Left side of the picture is the guest shower drain. after the p trap it goes directly into the end of the waste line.

 

[PaulNY]

View attachment 37669 I note that you have a whole house trap (marked E in picture and marked with a yellow curve) . That is not the norm today.

I don't know if this could relate to your symptom. I am wondering if the septic tank could build pressure until it burps past the whole house trap. Then a pressure wave of sewer gas comes out, and maybe not all of it comes out of the roof vent. With a whole house trap, you would need a vent on the septic side of that trap. Do you have such a vent?

House was built in '87 and the whole house trap is original. There is no vent on the septic/leach field side of the whole house trap. Where you marked D is the outside wall where the waste line exits the house. I don't think what you describe is happening as there was definitely dirty water getting into the guest shower drain when flushing the guest toilet. I could see the water rising in the shower trap when flushing the toilet and some waste was being pushed.. there was never this issue (6 years in the house) with the old bathrooms with the same waste piping, again, I'm by no means a plumbing professional, so not 100% positive.

 

[PaulNY]

just want to say I really appreciate everyone's help and input!!!

 

[Reach4]

House was built in '87 and the whole house trap is original. There is no vent on the septic/leach field side of the whole house trap. Where you marked D is the outside wall where the waste line exits the house. I don't think what you describe is happening as there was definitely dirty water getting into the guest shower drain when flushing the guest toilet. I could see the water rising in the shower trap when flushing the toilet and some waste was being pushed.. there was never this issue (6 years in the house) with the old bathrooms with the same waste piping, again, I'm by no means a plumbing professional, so not 100% positive.

Your problem with the backup into the shower is not venting and it is not your shower trap. You had the septic tank pumped, so we know that is probably not full.

I expect your shower is your lowest drain that is not serviced by a sewage pump in the basement. You have a clog or restriction of some sort downstream of the shower and toilet. The shower was the point of exit. That whole house trap would be a good place for a clog. There are cleanout ports to let you rod that trap. There is also a cleanout between C-D. If the problem is a clog in the trap, I don't expect standing water in the cleanout downstream of the whole-house trap. When you open the upstream cleanout on that trap, you may get overflow on the floor unless you have let enough time go by.

If this happens again, get that trap removed. It may or may not be a one-time problem.

 

[PaulNY]

Your problem with the backup into the shower is not venting and it is not your shower trap. You had the septic tank pumped, so we know that is probably not full.

I expect your shower is your lowest drain that is not serviced by a sewage pump in the basement. You have a clog or restriction of some sort downstream of the shower and toilet. The shower was the point of exit. That whole house trap would be a good place for a clog. There are cleanout ports to let you rod that trap. There is also a cleanout between C-D. If the problem is a clog in the trap, I don't expect standing water in the cleanout downstream of the whole-house trap. When you open the upstream cleanout on that trap, you may get overflow on the floor unless you have let enough time go by.

If this happens again, get that trap removed. It may or may not be a one-time problem.

Thanks for the reply, I want to clarify, there was no backup in the shower or anywhere else, everything drains properly without issue.
There was just an odor emanating from the guest shower drain. I noticed dirty water in the guest shower trap, though the water level seemed good (water seal intact). Note that that water was sitting in the guest shower trap for over a week as it was not used, though the guest toilet was used during that time.
The water in the guest shower trap moves/rises slightly when flushing the guest toilet, then settles back to normal level. No issues with draining at any time.

See attached picture Guest1-ShowerDrain.
The trap in the foreground of this attached picture (drain connected directly into the end of the waste line) is the guest shower drain that had the sewage smell issue.
The white drain line in the distance (bottom right corner you can see the AAV on that drain) is the master bathtub drain which feeds into the vent just before the whole house trap. No smell with that drain or any other.

Thanks
Paul

 

[Reach4]

Thanks for the reply, I want to clarify, there was no backup in the shower or anywhere else

Sorry. I mis-read. I saw "there was definitely dirty water getting into the guest shower drain when flushing the guest toilet" and was thinking there was dirty water coming out of the guest shower drain.