Opinion on expansion tank installation. Picture included.

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Neanderthal Man

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I want one... I like that natural look. :)

The easiest way for you is to probably get a good strong kitchen knife and climb up on your roof.
When one comes walking by jump down on it.

It always amazes me the number of plumbers that argue this issue. The code clearly states that the tank must be installed and furthermore if you take the time to read it, NOWHERE does it say that it's exempt if you are on a private well or a so called open system. We sell tanks. We make PROFIT selling and installing equipment. Put the damn thing in, collect the check and call it a day.

Well The guy doing the arguing so persistently isn't a plumber.
Just yesterday he learned how to flush a toilet in this very thread.
 

Cookie

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I am glad that some townships are making it mandatory, having to add an expansion. The people who are not happy about it, can't understand it. But, when someone is selling their home and the water heater is about to go, signs of age, etc, some are leaking, I recommend replacing it. I let the plumber tell them about having to add on an expansion, I am chicken and hate getting an earful since the total will be higher. The plumbers tell me they are used to it from customers.

But, I feel it is only fair to the buyer not to go into something with an expense already looking at them. So far as home inspections it all depends whether they will write it up or not, and as acting as an agent I can't say anything to the seller. The problems which led to this decision of making it mandatory was understandable. I feel it is better for all concerned in the end. The townships needed it and under those conditions , don't you all agree, maybe?
 
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Neanderthal Man

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Neo Man, I like this look...
attachment.php

Wow She's Hawt!
 

Ballvalve

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Water does not compress, Air does compress...
I would hope that you know that...
But, when you are dealing with idyuts take nothing for granted....
Your brother seems to be the smart one in the family...

So, muckraker Einstein, explain the difference in lifespan and relative safety between a tank whose pressure fluctuates from 60 to 149psi by thermal expansion, and one that expands from compression of air from 90 to 175 psi.

And you skipped the question of how many people in your extended family [brothers included] died in a house fire in the last 100 years? Maybe the one that fell asleep with the crack pipe in his mouth on the floor? When the flashover hit, we call it natural selection around here.

I'll never forget a call for a car fire / car accident we were dispatched to late one night

Thats the best one. Send it to Ralph Nader and in a year you can have a sideline installing sprinkler systems into autos along with all the carmakers. Hey! Whats a few thousand more for that Ford focus when it will save 4 lives a year?

You better quit the volunteer fire force and cuddle up with your 13d book for a good LONG read. You will discover that your silly looped system foisted by Wirsbro won't make the flow test on a REAL inspection.

I installed "selective" sprinkler heads in houses 30 years ago, long before anyone even thought of the concept.
 

Ballvalve

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Who is this skunk skin wearing screwball that pulls up "quotes" from people that were never made? Is this the bad brother of redwood?

I hope that skunk or possum skin you are wearing has a fire retardent treatment, lest you get too close to the kitchen stove in a cave without fire sprinklers. [Required by textile code] And Scotchgard it so you can get the blood off when some unshaved women in Boston toss water balloons of it on you.

And be sure when you drink that uranium sump water be sure that you have a backflow valve on the bib [LAW!] so you dont get any dirt into your precious digestive system - might make trouble with that live squirrel you ate from the tail up for lunch that morning. And best that the SPCA not secretly record your eating habits.

Nothing like brekfast that sings to you while you eat - eh? Way better than that crackle and pop from rice crispies...

In case anyone wants to give it a shot, North of Prague CR, there is an old uranium mine that people pay a lot of money to go down into and soak up the radon gas and ambient radioactivity on lounge chairs. I think there is a plumber here and a cro-mag that we should chip in for a LOOONG lounge there. At least it would kill off the lice in the fur.
 
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Ballvalve

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See, I already know, when I replace my 16 year old maybe, older water heater, I will need to put an expansion tank on. No question on that.

That makes you the poster child for someone NOT needing an expansion tank. Use the money saved for a great night out.

Muckraker: take close note.
 
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Ballvalve

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Even PVC pipe saves lives. I personally know of two cases where a fire melted the PVC and the resultant water release put out the fire. One was a fire in the basement and the other was a fire in the garbage can under the sink.

Funny, thats where all my houses had sprinklers starting 30 years ago. Maybe I got something long before the pipe lobby got involved.
 
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This link is a post that discusses pressurization cycles on a pressure vessel, and metal fatigue caused failure. Incidentally it is also in a thread muddied up with the rambling thoughts of a thick headed engineer...

That "thick headed engineer" was right and understood the scope of the problem. You on the other hand are still guessing. Nothing new, it's been a long source of amusement to me and other engineers to listen to tradesmen try to explain concepts they don't fully understand while they expound on all the engineers being idiots. (We learn to listen to the symptoms for clues, and to ignore most of the "analysis" offered.) My favorite example of this sort of blue collar analysis was the fellow in charge of maintenance for the water dept. in another town long ago explaining why all the leaks were finally showing up when warm weather arrived after a very hard freeze/blizzard: "The warmth is pushing all the cold deeper into the ground and busting the pipes." I was in my first year of engineering school at the time but already knew he was full of it... Coulda been your long lost brother.

It is a "Strange Day Indeed" when plumbers start agreeing with their senseless ramblings...

Stranger indeed is the day when you actually understand the "why."

It's plain and simple Expansion Tanks Work!

That they do, as long as the bladder remains intact and they are maintained. (Remembering our well house tanks as a kid, those bladders have a limited service life.) With those caveats they will even work when you have a system that wouldn't have failed your test in the thread you linked to. (As in the system I observed and measured before changing out toilets...that were acting as pressure relief.) Any time the valve pops it might not reseal--that includes people "testing" them.

Instead of the tank going through pressure cycles and being subjected to metal fatigue and an early failure, the tank pressure remains constant.

Gee, based on that astute analysis there must be a million or more water heaters outright rupturing each year from metal fatigue and blowing houses down! (Because thermal expansion tanks don't seem to be standard fare yet...they are becoming so but until I had one put in I had never lived anywhere that had one.) Most of what I've read and seen of water heater failure is corrosion rather than fatigue. Leaks, drips, pinhole sprays seem to be the most common failure mechanisms. Most likely a rupture is going to occur because of a double failure: gas control valve sticks open and T&P fails (or plugs.)

One thing I remember my family talking about decades ago was a neighbor's water heater relief sticking open while they were on vacation. Steamed the house thoroughly.

Neither device protects against runaway heating, that is the job of the BTU rated T&P valve. With the price being equal and one having the ability to waste large volumes of water while subjecting the water heater to life shortening pressure cycles, it is like a no-brainer to me but that doesn't always work with engineers.

Good luck with that. I've done the relief valve cases for worst case scenarios (heater input as well as fire and/or known reactions). And I've seen what happens when a properly sized (by another) relief valve plugs on a process vessel due to a case outside the envelope... It's a whole lot more impressive than your little water heater rupturing. Engineers don't like to rely on relief valves for that very reason. By the time we get to the relief valve a helluva lot of other things have already gone wrong.

And having dealt with many relief valves in many hazardous services, I'll point out that any time you open a relief valve there is a fair chance that it won't fully seal. That is actually one of the best arguments for the thermal expansion tank, much better than "metal fatigue". A few cc's of water in a pan every day is no big deal, but if it were ever to stick open or erode...that would be a problem. The temps in a water heater are much milder and they are somewhat buffered as opposed to the condensate I've worked with in low, med, high pressure industrial boilers, but I don't discount the corrosive characteristics of hot water on carbon steel when exposed to air.

Testing T&P's seems to be a Catch-22. The services they are most likely to leak or plug in are ones with sediment/scale. If you don't have sediment/scale build up they are more likely to work. If a person jacks with one of mine without asking first, they'll get to pay for the replacement if it sticks open. And unless you test to see if the valve really opens at its set temp and/or pressure you really don't know if it will protect the tank or not...making the "test" highly questionable. That's why in industry we have relief valves on a regular test schedule so that periodically they are pulled and bench tested/reset/rebuilt. Of course, when they come back they sometimes leak...oh well.

jadnashua explained the reason for the growing need of expansion tanks well. His experience matches mine.
 

Ballvalve

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You on the other hand are still guessing. Nothing new, it's been a long source of amusement to me and other engineers to listen to tradesmen try to explain concepts they don't fully understand while they expound on all the engineers being idiots.

Another voice of reason in a sea of tradesman, as Borat would say "have bone in head"
 

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Hey I guess you don't read really well do you Ballsvalve? My township along with several others has made it mandatory and in my understanding of the written English words means, required or commanded by authority that upon, changing out an existing waterheater and/or, for new construction, an expansion must be added.

So, that night out, if I don't comply could be in jail. No thanks, I don't like the prison garb, I am too skinny for stripes.

Got it?

That makes you the poster child for someone NOT needing an expansion tank. Use the money saved for a great night out.

Muckraker: take close note.
 
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Cookie

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So, muckraker Einstein, explain the difference in lifespan and relative safety between a tank whose pressure fluctuates from 60 to 149psi by thermal expansion, and one that expands from compression of air from 90 to 175 psi.

And you skipped the question of how many people in your extended family [brothers included] died in a house fire in the last 100 years? Maybe the one that fell asleep with the crack pipe in his mouth on the floor? When the flashover hit, we call it natural selection around here.



Thats the best one. Send it to Ralph Nader and in a year you can have a sideline installing sprinkler systems into autos along with all the carmakers. Hey! Whats a few thousand more for that Ford focus when it will save 4 lives a year?

You better quit the volunteer fire force and cuddle up with your 13d book for a good LONG read. You will discover that your silly looped system foisted by Wirsbro won't make the flow test on a REAL inspection.

I installed "selective" sprinkler heads in houses 30 years ago, long before anyone even thought of the concept.

You installed "selective" sprinkler heads in houses 30 years ago, long before anyone even thought of the concept? I will have to make sure I tell my long lost uncle this who holds a patent on it, LOL... He will laugh.
 

Redwood

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So, muckraker Einstein, explain the difference in lifespan and relative safety between a tank whose pressure fluctuates from 60 to 149psi by thermal expansion, and one that expands from compression of air from 90 to 175 psi.

And you skipped the question of how many people in your extended family [brothers included] died in a house fire in the last 100 years? Maybe the one that fell asleep with the crack pipe in his mouth on the floor? When the flashover hit, we call it natural selection around here.



Thats the best one. Send it to Ralph Nader and in a year you can have a sideline installing sprinkler systems into autos along with all the carmakers. Hey! Whats a few thousand more for that Ford focus when it will save 4 lives a year?

You better quit the volunteer fire force and cuddle up with your 13d book for a good LONG read. You will discover that your silly looped system foisted by Wirsbro won't make the flow test on a REAL inspection.

I installed "selective" sprinkler heads in houses 30 years ago, long before anyone even thought of the concept.

I see that as usual you have chosen the path of ignorance...

Yes the looped system under 13D is not the same system as fire suppression sprinkler systems used in the past and they are not tested to the same standard. I imagine that your "selective" head system was designed with plenty of dead ends where foul swill sat for decades growing in the pipes. I would just expect that from our misinformed know it all....

On a side note about protecting people about things that never happen...

Water emergency in effect in Somerset, Mass.

(NECN: Jennifer Eagan, Somerset, Mass.) - Residents of the Massachusetts town of Somerset are being told not to drink tap water for at least a couple of days.

A lawn care company may have inadvertently tainted the town's water supply.

Officials say the company was hydro seeding an area near the new Veterans Memorial Bridge when workers tapped into a fire hydrant without permission, and some of the mixture of mulch and seed may have been sent into the water supply.

Residents are being told not to use town water to drink, make ice, wash food or brush teeth.

The water can be used for showering and other purposes.

plumbers-protect.jpg


attachment.php


Greg King said:
Don’t argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

I'm off to my 2nd job of the day...
Can you believe a T&P discharging...
In a neighborhood served by a new water tower put in several years ago the supplied pressure I'd expect is 130psi in that area....
PRV and Thermal Expansion Tank should do it...
I'm surprised they didn't have problems before this...
Have a good day Ballvalve you and your new found friend Runs With Bison have plenty to talk about in your circle of jerks....
 
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That "thick headed engineer" was right and understood the scope of the problem. You on the other hand are still guessing. Nothing new, it's been a long source of amusement to me and other engineers to listen to tradesmen try to explain concepts they don't fully understand while they expound on all the engineers being idiots. (We learn to listen to the symptoms for clues, and to ignore most of the "analysis" offered.) My favorite example of this sort of blue collar analysis was the fellow in charge of maintenance for the water dept. in another town long ago explaining why all the leaks were finally showing up when warm weather arrived after a very hard freeze/blizzard: "The warmth is pushing all the cold deeper into the ground and busting the pipes." I was in my first year of engineering school at the time but already knew he was full of it... Coulda been your long lost brother

You only learn so much out of books, the rest is experience, and doing it. This is why so many things fail "on the books" until, you get a "lowly" tradesman to do your work for you. If it weren't for those people who get down & dirty, instead of getting manicures, NOTHING would ever work! You want to know how something works and WHY it works? Ask the person who does it everyday for a living. He or she, will always have more of a working understanding of it than an engineer. And, in far less words, too, and to-the-point. They don't need to pontificate.
 
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LLigetfa

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Have a good day Ballvalve you and your new found friend Runs With Bison have plenty to talk about in your circle of jerks....
LOL I'm sure glad I drank all of my coffee before seeing this otherwise I would have spewed it all over my screen.

I have to stop following this thread while at work, my coworkers are starting to wonder about me.
 
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Cwhyu2

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Back when we first started installing expansion tanks,early 90`s I was told by the rep from the company that we bought WH`s from that if you have a closed system and your WH tank started leaking while under warrenty with no expansion tank that it void the warrenty,no mater if was only a week old.
 

Jadnashua

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Humm, let's see, a compressor with a steel, unlined vessel verses a glass-lined vessel...which one is more likely to crack with pressure swings? I think the glass lining - and this doesn't mean an immediate leak or that it blows up...a micro-crack is all it takes to start to degrade the steel holding it all together. Once that happens, it rarely catastrophically fails, it eventually starts to leak, generally slowly. The expansion/contraction just speeds it up. Once that is compromised and the sacraficial anode is depeleted (plus, it can only do so much - expose more steel to the water, and it gets overwhelmed)...I'm pretty sure the glass-lined WH is going to die long before an air compressor (lousy example, and shows of ignorance).

Things just work better, longer under constant conditions. No emergency relief valve is going to do that. An expansion tank is designed specifically for that purpose.

Codes are written as a minimum safety standard to prevent problems. If you have a closed system, code requires an expansion tank (and some places are mandating them regardless for that 'what if' situation you may not recognize or understand.

ANYTHING mechanical should have regular maintenance, as eventually, it will fail. If you are unable to discover this yourself, there are professionals you should call to check on things for you.

Many of the features are mandated because people just don't have any common sense, or don't have the time or understanding of the implications of their actions. We aren't going to go back, and as people get more specialized in one certain area, what was considered common knowledge of things mechanical goes away...the age of the generalist is past. There's too much going on, and no single person can have an adequate handle on it all.

One sign of true intelligence is recognizing when you don't know to full answer to the question.
 

Redwoodvotesoften1

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Imma "thick headed engineer."

Hey Bufflo Breath. Long time no see!
Howya bean doin, I thawt ya ran offa dang cliff or sumpthin.
We aughta hook up n swill a lil moonshine togedder, rachet jaw bout ol timz like wye Toto Toilets suck cuz UPS busts dem in shippin, How dem whirlsapoo water heaters r the good stuff n all dat other dum stuff dat falls outta ur dang trap. I shur missed laffin atcha.

Maybeweez kin git ol Southern Man ta stop by an uz all 3 kin talk up sum dumb stuff.
Da 3 of uz kin prolly add up ta bout 1/2 a deck of jokers iffa ya gits ur brainz in high gear.

Hay jes wondrin did yaall build yur out houses on toppa the well too?
 
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