Odd hot water behavior in bathroom & washing machine - Help!

[kissiffer4]

Hi all,

We have a hot water problem in our apartment from various faucets (hot water going cold, turn off and on, same problem - hot water going cold) and after investigating, here is an outline of the various scenarios:

* turn shower faucet upstairs on hot - water comes out hot then goes warm - i leave this running for the entire test below

* turn on bathroom shower faucet downstairs on hot - remains very hot whilst shower faucet upstairs is running - shower faucet upstairs goes cold

* turn on bathroom sink faucet downstairs on hot - remains very hot whilst shower faucet upstairs is running - shower faucet upstairs goes cold

* turn on kitchen hot water faucet downstairs - remains very hot whilst shower faucet upstairs is running - shower faucet upstairs goes cold

* as soon as I turn off the faucet upstairs, all of the faucets downstairs cool down and I have the same problem as before - hot water cooling down.

Only other thing to add is, if I put the washing machine upstairs on a cold cycle, then whilst it is filling with water, the water from the faucets downstairs all remain hot (when turned to hot).

Question: Is this a cross connection problem? Could it be the hot water heater failing? Or, might it be a problem with the washing machine?

Any other suggestions much appreciated.

I have a plumber coming tomorrow to take a look at the washing machine (and do a test by turning off the machine valves).

Thanks all.

 

[kissiffer4]

Gents,

I had another plumber come and look at the problem today and here is his theory. First, based on the symptoms, he does not think it is a problem with the water heater.

He thinks the problem might exist because of the check valve by the water heater being in the wrong location. Here is a photo of our piping above the water heater:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/21503963@N04/5550135707/

So, what we have is the hot line on the left and the cold line on the right. He thinks the 1/2 inch line coming in all the way from the left is a hot water return line.

Now, what you can't really see here is, behind the flue we have a check valve with the arrow pointing right ->. He thinks this valve is in the wrong place. Right now when water comes in it is going both ways (into the heater and back up) instead of going directly back into the tank. He wants to move the valve to an area on the cold pipe closer to the heater, thus eliminating that problem. He isn't 100% certain that this is causing the issue, but certainly thinks it is a possibility.

Thoughts fellas?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[kissiffer4]

LLigetfa, well, at the moment if feels warm. The cold pipe feels a little warm as well. The hot pipe of course feels hot. I haven't run any water for a while either. Could this be a potential spot then for a cross over? Plumber wants $700 to move the check valve from that spot to the new one, so hoping this is the cause of the problem.

Thanks.

 

[kissiffer4]

So, I just ran the shower faucet on hot for a couple of minutes and went back down to check the pipes. The return line and cold pipes are both very cold now. Not sure if this means anything?

 

[kissiffer4]

LLigetfa, another quick question for you (and excuse my lack of plumbing knowledge!). I'm a little puzzled as to how it could be a hot water return pipe if it is connected to the cold pipe going to the heater? Would you mind explaining. Not sure if the plumber did, but it didn't make a lot of sense if he did. Wouldn't it make sense that the pipe was cold since it is connected to the cold water pipe? Thanks.

 

[kissiffer4]

Guys, I have added another couple of photos. This one is the on/off thing on the 1/2" line. I tried turning it anti-clockwise for ages to turn it off, but it just kept turning and didn't seem to be going anywhere. Is it corroded?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/21503963@N04/5553644498/

This photo is a better view of the existing check valve behind the flue:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/21503963@N04/5553644136/

Any thoughts?

Cheers all.

 

[kissiffer4]

Well gents...one new check valve and ball valve later on the 1/2" line and the problem is fixed! Didn't need to move the check valve as now we have a working ball valve on the line I was able to shut it off, which appears to have corrected the problem.

Anybody know why shutting off the 1/2" line would fix this? Now I'm wondering whether I might need it for something else! Also, even though it is shut off, will there be a build up of water pressure against it trying to come back into the water heater?

Thanks for all of the advice along the way

 

[Terry]

The recirc line, that 1/2" line returning to the water heater, should have a check valve that prevents cold water form going backwards up the line.



Normally with a recirc line, I would remove the water heater drain, and replace it with a 3/4" brass nipple, a brass tee with a brass nipple into each side. One side would get a ball valve with nipple and the other side a boiler drain.
The side with the ball valve would attach to the 1/2" recirc line with a check valve that would only allow water to flow into the bottom of the tank. The arrow should point "toward" the tank, not away.
This way, the cooler water enters the "bottom" of the tank. When someone used hot water, the heated water goes out the "top" of the tank.
Is that part clear?

By shutting off the new ball valve on the repair, all you did was disable the recirc line. If you want a "working" recirc line, you will need to open the ball valve and run the recirc into the bottom of the tank.
You can try running the recirc into the top like before, but the check valve has to be turned the correct way, and you should then have a check valve on the incoming cold line.

 

[kissiffer4]

Plumber fixed our h/w problem - now neighbor isn't getting water from one sink?

Hi..need a bit of advice from the experts

So, a plumber came and fixed a problem we were having with our hot water. To cut a long story short, he replaced a check valve and ball valve on a 1/2" recirculation line coming from our water heater (they were both old and broken). A few days before that as part of the trouble shooting he replaced a mixing valve on one of our shower heads. For the shower repair he had to shut off the main supply to the building. For the 1/2" line, he only shut off our cold water supply.

Fast forward a couple of days and my neighbor downstairs is now telling me she isn't getting any water to one of her sinks. It is only one sink causing the problem - she is getting water everywhere else.

Do you guys happen to know what might be causing this? Plumber is coming back tomorrow and is thinking about capping our 1/2" line. I don't want him to touch it! We each have separate water heaters in the basement. We are on the top two floors in the building and she is on the two lower floors.

Any help much appreciated!

Thanks.

 

[SacCity]

Sounds like the bad check valve that he fixed was supplying the water to her sink.
I am assuming that this is an older building that has been worked on in the past.
Most likely someone tapped into a water line that was accessible when pluming that sink.
Ah its cold water no big deal....

If he caps off the line you may be looking at running a new line to the sink....

I recently rewired an older 4 unit building. Bathrooms in two units on one electrical circuit, One kitchen off the house circuit.
The only reason it got red tagged was that the owner who did the work tried to save a few $$ by using 14/2 rather than the costlier 12/2
Michael

 

[Terry]

Can you post a picture looking at all of the connections from the right side of the heater?
I think I'm seeing maybe one cold, one recirc into the cold, and then a third pipe which is the 1/2".
Before I was assuming the 1/2" was the recirc going into the top of the tank, but it cold also be a cold supply for the neigbor.
And since that one is not cut, and the neighbor has lost cold, then maybe that is an issue.
I would say get with the neigbor, open the valve and have her see if she gets cold now.
If yes, then that may be cold, and "not" part of the recirc.

Then it may be that the line with the pump, goining into the top of the heater could be the return line of the recirc.
That would have worked better if it had been plumbed into the lower portion of the tank, as then you wouldn't so easily be mixing hot and cold at your faucets.
If you check valve the cold to the heater and check valve the recirc, then it may not cross over.

 

[LLigetfa]

My thinking is that the original arrangement probably worked at one time but that the check valve eventually quit working allowing a reverse flow creating a crossover situation. If all you did was replace the failed shutoff and check valve and provided the new check valve is facing the right way around, it should be restored to original working condition. It should not have been necessary to shut off the valve to resolve the crossover situation.

As was mentioned, it sounds like perhaps some hack job tapped into this purported return line to feed the sink and as long as you open that valve, the sink should work again. If true, it points out a problem whereby you are supplying water to your neighbor.

Now, what is really confusing is that a sink generally gets both a hot and a cold supply and I cannot fathom how that one valve would shut off both. We can only surmise based on the information given. I've asked several questions to try to ascertain how this purported recirc line was setup. The quality of our advice is commensurate with the quality of the information received.

 

[hj]

Close the valve with the blue handle and see if that cures the problem. If so, then you have a bad check valve. If it doesn't, then you have a different problem but it is NOT with the washing machine, unless you have the hot and cold connected together with a "Y" hose.