Nuclear plants in Japan risk meltdown

Discussion in 'Ian's Corner' started by Ian Gills, Mar 11, 2011.

  1. Cookie

    Cookie .

    Messages:
    5,660
    Location:
    .
    I say, let's build more of these. ( cookie snickers)
    So, we can do this every hundred years or so.
  2. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    This, I hope is a wake up call to america to re-open strategic metal stockpiles and bring home its lost manufacturing base.

    And to restrict the crazy international flow of food back and forth that wastes so much fuel. Buy locally.

    And keep electricity out of the ocean and basements of power plants. And open Yucca mountain tomorrow.
  3. Cookie

    Cookie .

    Messages:
    5,660
    Location:
    .
    Sometimes to go forward, we need to take a few steps backward. If nuclear power is the wave of the future, God helps us all and this planet.
  4. nukeman

    nukeman Nuclear Engineer

    Messages:
    702
    Location:
    VA
    These plants have held up pretty well considering. They withstood a 9.0 quake, eventhough they were designed for less. The tsunami is what caused the problems. In addition, the hydrogen explosions wouldn't have happened if the plants would have been here either. After TMI, there was an extensive review of the current plants. In these BWRs, they moved the venting path that originally went from primary to secondary containment to the outside. Obviously, the Japanese plants did not do this. The hydrogen continued to build up in the buildings (venting by procedure) and caused those explosions. The typical containment designs found in the US are filled with watertight doors. There are constant inspections where these are checked to make sure they are closed and that the seal is good.

    The wave flooded the switchgear room and wiped out many of the diesel tanks. It was a common-cause failure since these plants all shared the same basic design (same weakness).

    If you worry that much about radiation, you might as well live in a lead room and never leave (eventhough that still wouldn't keep all radiation out). Radiation is everywhere. Everytime you fly or go to higher elevations, you get a larger dose from space. Certain soil types are going to release more radiation, not to mention many stones. You may not know this, but coal plants release much more radiation than any nuke plant (traces of uranium and other products in the coal and goes into the air as it burns).

    What bothers me is the focus on these plants when how many people have been killed by the disaster??? Why don't people say "Hey, why didn't they design their buildings to withstand a 9.0 quake and a 30' wave??" Many of these people would still be alive if normal constuction was designed/built like a nuke plant.

    People have asked about the CA plants being in a earthquake area. The quake wasn't the problem (the water was). There has been questions about MOX fuel and that it is "bad" becuase it contains plutonium. The fact is that ALL fuel (after used) contains plutonium. It is a byproduct of the reaction and a good portion of the energy that is released as the fuel gets older is due to using plutonium.

    There has been a ton of bad info in the NEWS (especially early on, but it continues).
  5. is the mass evacuation from japan a possibility

    someone on U-tube recently stated that this disaster will eventually
    play out like the mass ecavuation of a million people from Vietnam after
    the end of that war..in 74.. they all came over here by the boatloads and became model citizens.

    Actually, the only place they can come if it is intolerable to live there is going to be canada and the west coast of the united states..... perhaps Australia.

    Japan is only about the size of California so they all cant cram into one end of the isalnd
    so we could get a huge influx of refugees from japan

    the only question is how many ?????

    and considering everything,
    they are a better calss of people than the mexican drug invasion..
    we are dealing with on the southern border...:D
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2011
  6. Cookie

    Cookie .

    Messages:
    5,660
    Location:
    .
    I don't think it will matter much to those caught up into it (the destruction & contamination) that the tsunami caused it, contaminating their food and water supply, and making things much worse than needed to be. Nuclear power is not all that is it cracked up to be, when you are the one caught up in the contamination, or your loved ones. We made those power plants not the tsunami, we haven't the controls over something which occurs naturally, but man-made we certainty, do. Our world isn't capable of controlling that kind of power, not yet, anyways, maybe, never. We need to look to other options.
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2011
  7. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    One small, 'fail safe' nuclear plant should be in every third county in the US. Jobs for the locals and jobs to build a standardized plant like a volkwagen beetle on an assembly line. And no 'smart' meters that will be shut off from hong kong by a hacker.

    Now we can save our oil and coal for plastics and hybrids, and snub our collective noses at the mideast that will be the ruin of us.

    Until we get smart enough to occupy a few and stay there forever.
  8. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

    Messages:
    7,453
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Yes, Ballvalve we'd all like to be optimists and believe that the oil has simply disappeared into the gullet of hungry microbes....
    The Corexit Dispersants sure did a good job of making sure that it didn't get to the surface...

    Say could I interest you in a plate of gulf shrimp?

    [​IMG]

    It smells good go ahead and eat it!
  9. nukeman

    nukeman Nuclear Engineer

    Messages:
    702
    Location:
    VA
    If this happened in my area, I wouldn't be worried about it. I understand the difference between measured radiation/contaimination and the levels that are required to actually hurt you. The fact is that the only significant releases were at the site and most was "shine" from the fuel pools when the level got low. "Shine" is when you have a direct path with no shielding from typically a gamma source.

    If any other type of plant were there, I think we would have seen even more destruction. Think of what a natural gas plant would have done or an oil burner. Coal can make quite a mess too. Look at this fly ash mess that happened awhile back:

    http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/dec/23/fly-ash-flood-covers-acres/

    It's not nuclear, so it doesn't get near the coverage. The fact is that things can go wrong at any plant and many more people have died from any of the other sources of power than they have from nuclear (coal, natural gas, oil, etc.). Nuclear is tops in terms of safety (especially in the US). When things like this happens, we go back and take what can be learned and implement it into the designs.
  10. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    Didnt go to the bottom either. Sorry, no oil or corexit found in any shrimp yet. Just got a 25# bag of them, heads on. The heads are the best part. Probably filled with oil processing bacteria. From 3 million years ago.


    A team of federal scientists had estimated that the total amount of oil that came from the well was 4.9 million barrels. Writer accompanies NOAA scientists on board a ship looking for oil plumes beneath the surface of the Gulf. Research in the Gulf has in many ways been encouraging. At the shoreline, pockets of oil will certainly linger. Although certain species may be at severe risk from the remaining oil, many others, such as sea turtles, do not seem to be under great threat, and the marsh as a whole does not appear to be ecologically devastated. All told, the spill killed fifty-six hundred birds, a dismaying number, but a small fraction of the quarter million that died in the Exxon Valdez spill. Oysters have suffered gravely, though this appears to be from the change in salinity caused by allowing the Mississippi to flow more forcefully into the Gulf. Luck certainly played a role in sparing large portions of the coast—a turn in the weather could have made the impact much worse—but a strategy based on dispersing the oil offshore appears to have helped prevent a great deal of crude from hitting land.
    Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/03/14/110314fa_fact_khatchadourian#ixzz1HCAwc3UZ

    The Itaxca spill, several times larger and more south, that no one noticed, used several times more corexit, and older more toxic version. No one is finding any corexit there also. Its the same stuff thats in your toothpaste, shampoo and soap anyway. Makes PVC primer look like plutonium.

    Much safer than the Indonesian toxic farm raised-antibiotic filled shrimp.
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2011
  11. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

    Messages:
    7,453
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Yep....
    Your right Ballvalve....
    4.9 million barrels of spilled oil disappeared the instant the cap went on....

    Can I interest you in my oceanfront property in Montana?
  12. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    The gulf has had a few million gallons a day in seeps for millions of years, and its all natural, and naturally processed.

    Corexit, or shampoo, broke up the already LIGHT oil [bacteria doesnt like the asphaltic oils as much] stopped the clumping, and gave a huge surface area for the bugs to feast on.

    4.9 million gallons in the gulf is about one teaspoon in lake Tahoe.

    BP did a great job, much better and faster than the Japanese dolts.

    BP is paying now for the perception of damage, like your posts that scare people into not eating the food. And the locals do not want the BP feed trough to go away.

    The scientists trying hard to impeach BP are rather coming away impressed.
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2011
  13. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

    Messages:
    7,453
    Location:
    Connecticut
    FYI... A barrel of oil is 42 US Gallons....
    So we are talking about 205.9 million gallons of oil with another 1.6 million gallons of Corexit...
    Consider that 1 gallon of used motor oil can foul the taste of 1,000,000 gallons of fresh water you tell me the extent of the environmental damage...

    Nah on second though you've obviously got your head in the sand, I don't need your opinion to try to sway the obvious IMHO...
    There is no way that all that oil disappeared!
    It's laying on the bottom unseen except when a fishing boat pulls up tarballs along with its catch....

    November 24, 2010 NOAA re-closed a 4,200 square miles area to shrimping. A Florida TV station sent frozen Gulf shrimp to be tested for petroleum by-products after recent reports showed scientists disagreed on whether it is safe to eat after the oil spill. A private lab found levels of Anthracene, a toxic hydrocarbon and a by-product of petroleum, at twice the levels the FDA finds acceptable.

    January 2011, an oil spill commissioner reported that tar balls continue to wash up, oil sheen trails are seen in the wake of fishing boats, wetlands marsh grass remains fouled and dying, and that crude oil lies offshore in deep water and in fine silts and sands onshore.

    Yep, It has certainly disappeared....
  14. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    Crude oil, arsenic, cyanide, uranium, radon, silica dust, smoke are all natural products. Nature manages them. Drain oil is not.

    Drain oil has been filled with toxic additives that have been burned, beaten and heated and molecularly changed into a fairly toxic brew.

    Although even drain oil has its bacteria that render it safe in the dirt after a few years.

    You probably injest more toxins changing your engine oil and wiping pipe dope on a thread, than eating my 25 pounds of delicious natural oil scented shrimp.

    And have a cigar or cigarette while doing it. The plumbers around here look like crystal meth is their flavor of cigarette, and junk food is their substanence. A bag of fresh shrimp would be a tonic to them, even if dipped in Corexit with mayo.
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2011
  15. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

    Messages:
    7,453
    Location:
    Connecticut
  16. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    If you bothered to read your own post, you would see that this vomit came down the Miss. river.

    This river is a industrial sewer, and likely some Cajun dirtbag that CHARGES to collect drain oil got drunk one late night and decided to clear out his holding tanks.

    Took his chevy to the Levy.....

    OR a natural seep decided to feed the gulf its natural and historic legacy.

    JOBS for the locals! And Why not let the Brits pay for them? They make a fortune from our oil. Its a lie, but lets give them the blame.

    Perhaps it was Ian creating socialist type jobs for the area poor.
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2011
  17. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

    Messages:
    7,453
    Location:
    Connecticut
    It turns out it didn't come floating down the river....
    Gotta love this one...
    The oil producers self report their oil spills....
    Yesterday, days after an oil slick was first seen near southern Louisiana's Grand Isle, Houston-based Anglo-Suisse Offshore Partners accepted responsibility for what seems like a minor oil spill.
    They had reported that they spilled 5 gallons! LOL

    http://ecocentric.blogs.time.com/20...and-insight-into-the-causes-of-the-old-spill/

    Gotta love how that works.... If you get caught you pay....
  18. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    Anglo-Suisse. Is that the Brits and the "neutral" country that lives on the Jewish blood money from WW2? Lets give them a few billion dollar fine and get some repayment for our work in their pathetic machinations in 1939.

    5 gallons of oil and 5 pounds of Jewish gold fillings in the Swiss vaults. Add a few dozen zeros to that and we'll get near the truth.
  19. Cookie

    Cookie .

    Messages:
    5,660
    Location:
    .
    I wish they would pass our a report on what they saw, it could save me money on Imaging done at the hospital, it might be cheaper...


    Tue Mar 29, 8:50 am ET
    WASHINGTON (AFP) – Full-body scanners used to secure airports, about 1,000 of which will be deployed across the United States by year's end, do not pose health risks, a study released has found.

    The University of California study appearing in the "Archives of Internal Medicine" found that a traveler would have to go through a body scanner 50 times to receive the same amount of radiation as from a dental X-ray.

    The researchers also said a lung X-ray was equivalent to 1,000 trips through an airport scanner, while a mammogram delivers as much radiation as passing through such a scanner 4,000 times.

    The study focused on x-ray machines dubbed "backscatter" which use low-dose x-rays, similar to those used in medical imaging. So far there are some 486 full-body scanners in place in 78 US airports.

    "The radiation doses emitted by the scans are extremely small; the scans deliver an amount of radiation equivalent to 3 to 9 minutes of the radiation received through normal daily living," the authors wrote.

    And "since flying itself increases exposure to ionizing radiation, the scan will contribute less than one percent of the dose a flyer will receive from exposure to cosmic rays at elevated altitudes," they added.

    "The estimation of cancer risks associated with these scans is difficult, but using the only available models, the risk would be extremely small, even among frequent flyers. We conclude that there is no significant threat of radiation from the scans," they wrote.

    Advanced imaging technology X-ray scanners currently in use at airports around the United States sparked an uproar among travelers because they produce a graphic image of a person's naked body, genitalia and all.

    Others have worried the scans might be unsafe.
  20. Cookie

    Cookie .

    Messages:
    5,660
    Location:
    .
    Need a good paying Job?



    The mother of one of the atomic "samurai" working to bring Japan's stricken nuclear plant under control has said her son and his colleagues expect to die as a result of their efforts. Meanwhile, there are reports that additional workers are being offered big money to dash into the radiation-drenched heart of the Fukushima Daiichi plant, perform a job, then withdraw.

    In a phone interview with Fox News, the tearful mother of a 32-year-old worker said: "My son and his colleagues have discussed it at length and they have committed themselves to die if necessary to save the nation."

    "He told me they have accepted they will all probably die from radiation sickness in the short term or cancer in the long term," the woman added.

    "They know it is impossible for them not to have been exposed to lethal doses of radiation."

    The woman did not give her name, because she said the workers had been asked by management not to speak publicly about their ordeal, in order to minimize panic.

    There are also indications that the workers aren't being provided with some crucial safety equipment. Japan's interior minister said that not all of the workers were given lead sheeting to protect themselves from the floor--which may be contaminated by radiation--while sleeping.

    "My son has been sleeping on a desk because he is afraid to lie on the floor. But they say high radioactivity is everywhere and I think this will not save him," said the mother.

    In another bleak sign, there are reports of additional workers being offered up to $5,000 a day to act as "jumpers"--so called because they "jump" into highly radioactive areas to quickly perform a task before fleeing with minimal exposure. But even at those rates, many candidates are turning the work down, Reuters reports.

    "My company offered me 200,000 yen ($2,500) per day," one subcontractor in his 30s told a reporter."Ordinarily I'd consider that a dream job, but my wife was in tears and stopped me, so I declined."

    And Ryuta Fujita, 27, told the Tokyo Shimbun newspaper he was offered $5,000 to go into Reactor 2, but likewise declined.

    "I hear that guys older than 50 are being hired at high pay," Fujita said. "But I'm still young, and radiation scares me. I don't want to work in a nuclear plant again."

    Last week two workers in Reactor 3 were taken to hospital after their feet were exposed to 170-180 millisieverts of radiation. The average dose for a worker at a nuclear plant is 50 millisieverts over 5 years.

    Because so few workers want to venture into the plant, it's proving hard for TEPCO, that company that runs it, to assess whether efforts to cool the fuel rods are working, or even to fully diagnose the problems.

    Robots are usually used for this type of work, but Fukushima's interior is so filled with debris that it's difficult for robots to operate there.

    (A young boy is screened for radiation contamination before entering an evacuation center in Fukushima, Japan, April 1, 2011.: Wally Santana/AP)

Share This Page