NTCA Webinar Program: Barrier Free Design and Techniques - Date: Apr 16, 2014

Discussion in 'Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog' started by johnfrwhipple, Mar 27, 2014.

  1. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Date: Wed, Apr 16, 2014
    Time: 01:00 PM CDT
    Duration: 1 hour
    Host(s): Jim Olson
    Sponsored by: Laticrete
    Presenter: Arthur Mintie

    Arthur Mintie currently serves as the Director of Technical Services at LATICRETE INTERNATIONAL, Inc. - a World Leader in Tile and Stone Installation Systems. He is responsible for overseeing the operations of the LATICRETE Technical Services Department, including providing technical assistance to specifiers and designers and is actively involved in global education and training for tile industry materials and methods.

    OVERVIEW:
    This presentation focuses on the design and installation of barrier free tiled shower systems. The presentation provides an overview of the attributes of barrier free shower installations including a review of applicable industry standards that govern tiled shower installation systems. The presentation discusses the various types of waterproofing membranes and drains that are used for these applications. Best practices, installation methodology and various installation tips and techniques will also be discussed. In addition, the presentation will review alternative shower system components and accessories suited for barrier free applications.

    OUTLINE of Barrier Free Shower Design / Techniques:

    • Reasons for barrier free showers
    • Review of ADA and accessibility requirements
    • Industry standards that govern waterproofing membranes and shower pans
    • Review of drain assemblies for shower pans
    • Installation concerns and tips
    • Plumbing and Industry Codes
    • ANSI Installation and Product Standards
    • TCNA Installation Methods
    • Classic Type TCNA B415
    • Bonding Flange Type TCNA B422
    • Treatment of Critical Areas
    • Flood Testing Requirements and Procedures
    • Prefabricated Shower Pan Assemblies & Accessories
    • Linear Drains
    • Bonding Flange Drains

    Log In Info:

    https://cc.readytalk.com/partlogin/cwge0vjcprtt
    Streaming audio available through your computer.

    Or you can call in to listen to the audio via your phone

    U.S. & Canada Toll-Free 888-633-8407
  2. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    North Vancouver, BC
    I'm registered for this webinar class on Barrier free bathrooms. Who else is signing up for it?

    Looking forward to hearing from Arthur Mintie at Laticrete....

    I have signed up for these NTCA webinar alerts but can not remember how I did. If you want to hear Arthur maybe email him and find out the link you need to sign up. You can reach him here: Arthur Mintie amintie@laticrete.com
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2014
  3. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    4,412
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Just over two weeks out. Who has signed up?
  4. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    4,412
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    Two More Days.

    Who has signed up?
  5. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    Looks like you may be on your own, Unless Jim goes.

    I would go but my license is expired.


    Enjoy. Bring back knowledge, And put it on a USB stick when you get home.
  6. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    I've been signed up...good info never hurts.
  7. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Location:
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    What did we learn?

    So Jim - Did you learn anything?

    How did you like the presentation?

    I laughed at the end when the question came in from the Mapei Technical Rep.... "That was funny!" I think they where hoping for a plug on the old Mapeband..... Not sure why Arthur skirted the question and brought up rubber sheets and sand bags.

    It is so easy to make a temporary dam with Hydro Ban.

    Did you see the food test picture Jim? That was my shower but it was not a curbless project.

    Heavy showing of the Quick Drain Products. I guess Arthur was searching for finished examples.


    Good review, but as always I have more questions than answers after the presentation.....
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2014
  8. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Top Shower Specification Recommendation from NTCA Training Program TCNA B422

    This was Arthur's top recommendation for a curbless shower build (TCNA B422). He said something like it is the lowest build up possible in a standard shower build.

    [​IMG]

    The Laticrete drawing used for his presentation was ES B422 but I can n to find a copy online as yet to share here.

    The presentation did not cover any custom shower build - no references or examples of lowered floor joists or recessed shower pan locations.

    What you can learn from this detail is the use of a waterproofing product tying into a bonding flange drain.

    Now if your a clever fellow like me - you might look hard at the Noble Flex Flashing Product and ask yourself - "How does John use this in so many shower builds?"
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2014
  9. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Laticrete ES B422 Diagram - Shower Drain with Bonded Flange

    Found an online copy of Laticrete's ES B422 Drawing

    [​IMG]

    My first question is on the thickness requirements of the mortar bed. I'm pretty sure Arthur mentioned that the mortar bed could be installed thinner but the drawing spec's 2".

    The Spec detail on the Thick Bed w/3701 requires the wire reinforcing in the middle but clearly above it is shown at the bottom.
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2014
  10. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    I learned a lot.

    Leave it up to the Pros.


    I would rather lay pipe...
  11. BobL43

    BobL43 DIY Senior Member

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    I was going to say something about her name, but I will be quiet.
  12. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
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    Location:
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    Other than some of the references I had not considered, the presentation was pretty basic. All of the water containment issues mentioned, I'd seen before.

    FWIW, there are only two entries in the TCNA handbook that were instituted for a specific company (Schluter). B422 was added for Kerdi shower construction MANY years ago, the original bonded membrane shower system (their patent ran out last year, so it IS new for the imitators). Don't remember exactly when that was, but 1987 comes to mind, that may not be correct. Currently, shower procedures in the handbook run from B411-B431, so that gives you an idea of it's age - newer ones get assigned the next number. That he indicated it was 'new' technology is very misleading...maybe for the rest of the industry to catch up. The other procedure was for uncoupling membranes, which was added for Ditra. There's a long track record for both products. Surface membranes certainly make the whole job easier, and when done right, more reliable, something I've been saying for years for any shower construction.

    If you've never seen a barrier free design, or some of the products and procedures you can use to create one, it was a good introduction. If you've done a little homework, it didn't add much except reinforce the knowledge.
  13. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Like Jim I found the overview very basic.

    None of the fun stuff that I do at work. No general specifications for the shower's design.

    No talk of capillary breaks.

    No mention of LVL's

    Good overview - but I wanted more meat and potatoes.

    Certainly does look like Laticrete owns that old specification. With a bonded membrane drain and the setting material that's a hard combo for company's like Schluter to compete with.
  14. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
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    Location:
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    B422 was added to the TCNA handbook many years ago, way before Laticrete ever thought of making a sheet membrane link Kerdi. It was added when Kerdi was the only bonded membrane shower system in town, at Schluter's behest. The drawing they showed in their presentation is not the one shown in the Handbook...it was redrawn to show their drain and is from a different angle than that in the handbook. You cannot tell the drain details in the handbook's diagram which is in line with their policy to not call out specific products, only procedures. That John says Laticrete 'owns' it, just shows his bias and ignorance of the facts. B422 was added to the TCNA handbook over a decade ago, long before Laticrete came out with their sheet membrane (officially launched April 1, 2014).

    Any manufacturer can redraw the diagram showing their products as they would be used, but the handbook is technique focused, and NEVER shows a specific product by name. So, the drawing shown above is a Laticrete modified B422 document, and would never be shown in the TCNA handbook as drawn. As I understand it, the TCNA handbook is copywrited, so I cannot scan and include the actual drawing in their spec here.
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
  15. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Member

    Messages:
    414
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Without the ability to lower the substrate, which is the first step , how can one even talk barrier free? Lowering joist, cleating joist, re-routing plumbing, is ground zero and may requre a structural engineer, Unless you raise the rest of the room and have a tacklebox curb at the bathrooms entry? This requires plumbing and building inspections from what ive found? I would have expected a red flag here from a few of you? Ok an orange flag will work as well.
  16. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,139
    Location:
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    I'm not defending or chastising them on the presentation, but it was pretty basic, mostly on final looks, not necessarily on how to accomplish it.
  17. eurob

    eurob master tile and stone installer

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    Location:
    Montreal
    MULTIPLE RED FLAGS :D

    The problem is that the field technicians -- tile installers -- are just getting the bill and the reps are getting the credit .

    I never understood why John is so much into it -- webinar -- since he is building curbless showers for living -- custom ones -- .

    I used to built curbless shower 25 years ago , in arenas -- public or gang showers with linear tiled trenches for drainage -- . Nothing new which needs watching -- webinar - . There is no technical rep which will tell a client what needs to be done or which will support you to make it right . However , the TR will point fingers at you -- installer error -- if something wrong is happening .


    If interested , there are few manuals from Laticrete -- well worth reading -- http://www.laticrete.com/contractors/technical_design_manuals.aspx
  18. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    That is why most times we fly by before lock up or while the first floor is being framed and retool the layout.

    Double 2"x10" 's

    LVL's

    Voids in the cement floor

    All good approaches the engineers and builders I work with take to improve deflection and floor grade elevations.


    Often the only route left if we are called to late.

    Then preparing the subfloor flush with the joists tops and raising the rest of the home's subfloor can give you the room you need.

    Most times we can design a barrier free shower with just 1 - 1 1/4" of play. The type of drain also factors in. So does the tile layout. The tile itself.

    The Laticrete presentation was safe and good as an overview. But the real meat and potatoes and learning curve comes from banging this shit out in the real world. I've build dozens of barrier free showers. No two are the same. I have worked with many different builders. They each have their own structural engineer. I work in Vancouver, North Vancouver, Burnaby, East Vancouver and on and on. Each has their own plumbing and building inspector.

    When you are in this business you learn from everybody.

    The newest favourite every one loves. LVL's - not joists. These bad boys rock and are so strong. Night and day difference over normal framing lumber....
  19. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Member

    Messages:
    414
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Lots of microlams goin in here. Ran into 20"oc tgi w/osb tops! Balooned framed homes you name it. Inspectors requesting 3/4 exp 1 bc ply sisters. ? You may need aproval to cleat/ crossblock and lower 3/4 ply to flush the joist. Simpsons? Toenailed? Glued/toescrewed ? This must be part of a curbless shower discussion 101? The homeowner always has a shock when this discussion comes into play in the field, but thats only happening in a real life actual hands on job site with tools and inspectors. The industry seems to be advertising simple easy curbless linear these days, i believe its confusing homeowners more. John does have some example photos i think?
  20. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Location:
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    Simple and easy Advertising for sure. With the drain at the entry and no pitch outside the room.

    Perfectly flat floors prepped with self levelling concrete. In a wet room - that's funny.
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