Not sure if my greensand iron filter is working

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Tcec9240

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Installed a water system in the house we moved into about 7 months ago. We have (in order) acid neutralizer, greensand iron filter, and conditioner/softener. The water is very high in iron here, I think it tested around 12 ppm? or higher raw. A couple of our neighbors have the same system and seem to have good luck with it. I didn't ask too many questions and got the same system through the same company after a couple water tests.

Since we've moved in we've had rotten egg smell from hot and cold water and staining (not to mention other problems with the equipment that the company had to take care of). We've bleached the hot water heater and lines twice, and had the anode rod pulled from the water heater because we were told it could be reacting with the iron bacteria and causing the smell. Recently we had a different company come out and test the water and check the system over. He bypassed the softener and tested the iron level in the water with the acid neutralizer and greensands on. It tested at around 11 ppm. He said the conditioner was sort of keeping up, but wasn't designed to handle that amount of iron, and that the greensands should be taking care of it.

Since it was still under warranty, I had the tech from the company we bought it from out, told him what we found, and he cleaned the injectors and showed me how, set the regeneration cycle to two days instead of three, and said to keep an eye on it and have the water tested again in a couple weeks. I bought my own Hach testing papers, and with all 3 tanks on (not bypassed) our iron is at .15. After bypassing the conditioner I tested at 5, but that was the max of the papers I had.

I monitored a regeneration cycle and it seems to draw and rinse and fill the brine tank fine. This is my first experience with this stuff, but it seems to work. I took apart the injector assembly and nothing was clogged or even really dirty. The only thing I could see, and I noticed because of another forum on here, is that there is an Air Disperser (part 19 on the control valve assembly drawing) on the drawing, but not one in the head that I could tell. Unless its not meant to come out. I have the Fleck 2510 with digital display (I think).

I mostly try to avoid plumbing stuff 'cuz I end up with a huge mess, but I really don't think the greensands is working right, and I don't know what else to look for. The company we bought this system from is saying I need some kind of aluminum sulfate feeder and holding tank for another $800 or so, when originally they said the system I have would take care of everything.

I'm pretty stumped, and am planning on having a technician from a different company come out and take a look. The equipment itself isn't overly complicated to work on, but I don't completely understand how it works. Any help or advice would be great.
 

ditttohead

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Greensand typically needs a regenerant. Pot Perm is the most common but chlorine is also commonly used. Does your greensand system have a small chemical tank next to it? If not, then you may have something different than actual greensand. Read this link here for details on greensand. http://www.clackcorp.com/downloads/ion_exchange_resin_and_filter_media/greensandplus_inversand.pdf Post some pictures of your equipment so we can help you a little better. And your softener is going to need to be chemically cleaned. Iron out is the most common method. Do you have the well water report? That would also be very helpful.
 

Tcec9240

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Thanks for the response. Yes, it uses potassium permagenate. I will take a picture of the equipment tonight and post. I will also try to find the well water report.

I guess my first post was lengthy, but my main concern at this point is to verify that the greensand filter is working right. From what I've read and been told, the iron content of the water should be close to zero after going through the greensand and it isn't.
 

Gary Slusser

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Is it actually sucking PP out of the tank?

Your well pump... is it a submersible (in the well) or a jet pump (above ground)? What pressure range (30-50, 40-60) is the pressure switch set to and when was the last time the captive air pressure in the pressure tank was checked? It has to be checked with no water in the tank and then set to 29 psi for a 30-50 switch setting or 39 for 40-60 switch setting.
 

Reach4

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I am just an amateur with a well and a filter. My knowledge is more limited. My water is less challenging, and I drink my water now that I have the filtering.

I think the smell you are describing is likely from sulfur (H2S), although I may have read that manganese can have a similar smell? Common tests don't seem to test for sulfur. I kinda doubt that iron reacts with a water heater anode rod to make a smell. Removing the rod is bad for the life of your water heater. I put a powered anode into my water heater. I ordered that before my backwashing filter, so I might have gotten by with a conventional anode given the filter. Anyway, the powered anode ($24x with shipping) should be portable to later water heaters. The tank was older with a totally-eaten-away anode rod when I got it. Pulling the old anode was ridiculously hard.

I would suggest you try retesting iron 1 day after a regeneration and comparing with day 2. The same for the softener. It's been posted that water softener resin that has to remove much iron needs a special cleaning or iron out regularly. And for iron removal, bigger is usually better to a point.

My iron is much lower than that, but my filter took out my iron and my sulfur.

My iron test is Seachem multitest iron test good for 75 tests supposedly, and I am impressed with it. However it is only good up to 2 ppm. It has a "normal range" up to 2 ppm, and it has a "low range" test procedure where it It is nice and sensitive for low levels however. For high levels, I guess I would dilute the sample with distilled water.

I see Hach has various iron tests available.
 

Tcec9240

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Is it actually sucking PP out of the tank?

Your well pump... is it a submersible (in the well) or a jet pump (above ground)? What pressure range (30-50, 40-60) is the pressure switch set to and when was the last time the captive air pressure in the pressure tank was checked? It has to be checked with no water in the tank and then set to 29 psi for a 30-50 switch setting or 39 for 40-60 switch setting.

Here's the system, water comes in on the right, acid neutralizer to get the pH up (white one), greensands with PP feeder, and softener.

The pump is submersible. The gauge that sits on the piping by the pressure tank says 45 psi. All this was just installed this past year before we moved in.
The greensand does suck PP out of the tank. I watched the water level go down last night, and there must be some sort of felt pad or something in the bottom of the feeder tank?

I was told that since our water is softened (and that does work) pulling the anode rod would be ok. Supposedly it will shorten the life of your water heater if you have hard water. I didn't do it, the plumber did, and bleached the tank afterwards.

I know the smell is not harmful, just a pain. The iron isn't harmful either, but this system cost almost $3,000K. What bothers me most is the amount of iron getting past the greensand tank. This will eventually take its toll on our fixtures and appliances.
 

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Tcec9240

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An update to this, the greensands regenerated last night, and the iron tested around to 2 this morning with the softener bypassed. With the softener on its around .15, which is about the best we can do here (also have tannins and I'm not spending another $3K for a tannin filter).

The original raw water test showed iron at 12ppm, and a recent test by a different company with the greensands on and softener bypassed was 11. So right now its working better than it was a couple weeks ago. I'm not sure I did anything other than disassemble the injector assembly and put it back together, but its set to regenerate every two days and I'll continue to test regularly. I've definitely learned alot about how much maintenance these things require from this forum.
 

Reach4

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Where did you find a powered anode rod for $24?
I used the italic x to represent a digit (a wildcard) that I did not remember off of the top of my head. The actual amount was $246.06 with shipping.

It seems like something you could build yourself, but that would probably take a lot of time to make leak-free. There is a bit more circuitry than I expected. This is a low-volume item, so while I was initially shocked by the price, it now seems reasonable to me. A quality aluminum+zinc or magnesium anode rod is much cheaper, but then you have the work of checking and changing it out periodically. Softened deep well water is harder on water heater tanks than city water or hard water. Plus there is the original motivation-- the reason some people pull the regular rods out.
 

Tcec9240

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Softened deep well water is harder on water heater tanks than city water or hard water.

Why is that the case? And what is the definition of deep? That is the first I heard that, and my plumber and the water filtration folks didn't think that either. I'd asked the plumber about putting in a different anode rod, but they basically said why bother if your water is softened.
 

Reach4

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Why is that the case? And what is the definition of deep? That is the first I heard that, and my plumber and the water filtration folks didn't think that either. I'd asked the plumber about putting in a different anode rod, but they basically said why bother if your water is softened.
Softened water has salt in it. Salt water promotes corrosion Hard water has calcium and magnesium compounds in it. Those deposits tend to protect rather than corrode. Pure distilled or RO water is actually more reactive than water with calcium and magnesium.

Search for this phrase: "softened water is exceedingly corrosive". Now that may be a bit overstated, but it sure gets repeated a lot. You will find references that say you will have to replace anodes more often with softened water.

I will IM a URL or 2.

I think the official version of deep for a water well is over maybe 25 feet, oddly enough, but I would avoid the term for a well shallower than 100. It's not the depth per se, but deeper wells tend to have harder water. So I probably should have just referred to the original hardness+iron. It's really the sodium salt that replaces magnesium, calcium, iron, manganese that is harder on any imperfections in the tank liner.

Edit: looking stuff up, there are those that say that softened water is not more corrosive to hot water tanks than hard water. I think more info is need. I think that those who say that softened water uses up anodes quicker are probably right.
 
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Mikey

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That "offical" version of "deep" probably came from the fact that you can only suck water so high -- about 33.8 feet in the ideal case at sea level, shallower as you go up. Any deeper, and you have to use jets or push the water up with a submerged pump.
 

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This is all pretty interesting. My well is somewhere around 30 feet I think. I guess we'll see how long my water heater lasts, that was also new six months ago. The plumber had to cut the anode rod in half when removing it because our basement ceiling is a foot lower than normal. Wouldn't be any easy job putting a different one in at this point. I either didn't do enough research when all this stuff was installed, or listened to the wrong people. Hopefully the greensands fails first so I can get rid of that pile of junk and replace it with something that actually works.
 

Mikey

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There are three solutions to the low-ceiling problem that I know of:
1) Cut a hole in the ceiling above the anode rod. That's what I did, but I just had the garage attic above.
2) Buy a flexible anode rod: http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/OrderPages/XCart/Flex-Hex-Zinc-Anode.html
3) Buy a powered anode. This is most expensive, but a) does the best job of protecting your water heater tank in all waters, b) is flexible, and c) is a once-in-a-lifetime investment: http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/OrderPages/XCart/Power-Anode-Coupling.html
 

Gary Slusser

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Softening does not add salt to the water. Only sodium at the rate of 7.85 mg/l per grain per gallon of compensated hardness and it is a rare water that doesn't have some sodium in it. All tank type water heaters are glass lined, nothing in water can harm it but when the lining is damaged/cracked etc., all waters will rust the mild steel of the tanks.

The BS about softened water harming water heaters, copper plumbing etc. is due to the claim that hard water is good because it coats the inside of heaters, pipes etc. etc. and thereby the hard water scale protects those things from corrosion caused by water and what is in it. In it includes DO (dissolved oxygen), low pH (acidity) etc. while water is known to dissolve/corrode almost everything if given enough time to do it.

Deep wells.... having done well pump replacement and service for many years, deep depends on what part of the country we are talking about. In PA, which is second for the number of people with wells, in the 2000 census TX became #1, the average depth is about 350 feet. And yet there are many deeper down to 500' although somewhat rare unless the well is up on a mountain. Anything less than say 100' is considered a shallow well.
 

Reach4

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Hmmm... I should take 3 jars ... A nail with a fresh-ground area and some steel wool in each. Different water in each.
 
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Tcec9240

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Gary, I saw a post by you on this forum in 2005 where you said the same thing, glad to know you still stand by that! Since my local professionals were not concerned about not having the anode rod, I'm not going to worry about it either. Seems like there are differing opinions on just about everything with this water treatment stuff. All the websites I saw that said softened water ruined your water heater were selling expensive replacement anode rods. I'll let everyone know how long my water heater lasts.

Changing the subject back, is there any truth to the idea of adding about a cup of the pot perm to the greensand feeder tank every week? The guys I bought the system from said to mound it up in the middle and leave it, but it has looked to me like the level of the mound never changed. I stirred it up a little bit and have a regen scheduled tonight.
 

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Hmmm... I should take 3 jars ... A nail with a fresh-ground area and some steel wool in each. Different water in each.
And I think all you will prove is why water is called the universal solvent, and that it conducts electricity (due to things in it, like some sodium, some chlorides, calcium, magnesium, copper, iron, etc. etc. measured by a TDS test) but... DI (deionized water) is not normally considered a conductor of electricity, so what do you think the three jar experiment will prove?

Tcec9240, the anode rod is there to prevent corrosion caused by electrical currents which is a prime cause of electric water heater failure (leaks). At the same time some things in water, like SRB (sulfate reducing bacteria), 'eat' certain types of anode rods which can cause H2S odor in the hot water. So having an anode rod is a good thing but can cause water quality problems. Another much more common cause of water heater premature failure is water hardness scale formation on electric elements and the inside or gas and oil fired water heaters. Scale can be measured in inches and that increases the operational cost of heating water when whatever thickness of scale has to be heated before any of the water is. So ya choose yer poison; hard water problems all around the house and in the water heater increasing your cost of living or a water softener.
 
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