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[Eurob]

I'm no engineer but the pressure had to be off the charts. Kind of makes me worried about my flood tests. If you where to flood test with the ____ membrane and that shower had one of the large pre-made curbs. And you filled it to the top of the curb.
..............
All future testing will be much clearer in the verbiage or wording. I will not reference any ANSI this. Not a single TCNA that. Nor any TTMAC jargon.... In BIG BOLD LETTERS I will call this style "Whipple Style"...

If I remember correctly -- Nuke's post -- the pressure for a 36'' x 36'' filled with water , 1'' would be 1psi , 2'' would be 2psi and so forth , but I think it is at the lowest part where the drain connection is , NOT at the changes of planes -- where the pressure would be smaller --......but I may be wrong . If I am not , the pressure would be negligible and the leaks would be from wicking .

For future testing I think we should call the shower flood tests -- Whipple 1O1 Test -- . Kinda curious that this small requirement is not covered by a standard reference .

On a side note I was called a couple weeks back from Dural.

I just browsed through -- I think Dural's membrane -- and some reference to flexibility and foundation wording was mentioned . Am I having the right membrane ?

 

[Jadnashua]

If I remember correctly -- Nuke's post -- the pressure for a 36'' x 36'' filled with water , 1'' would be 1psi , 2'' would be 2psi and so forth ,

The area of the water tank has nothing to do with the pressure at the bottom on a psi basis. One foot of water depth generates 0.43 pounds psi beneath it...not much, but being there constantly is the issue. It is the pervasiveness that is the problem. Water in a thin stream running over a surface is MUCH less of an issue, regardless of whether it is intermittent or constant...it is the depth and consistency that is important. So, like John likes to call a shower the wettest place on earth with hundreds of inches of water per year...it's all irrelevant, since the head pressure is the same as the instantaneous depth, which is likely a thin stream...a flood test that has that constant pressure on it for hours at a time (or as John likes to do, 3-days) is a MUCH more severe test of the waterproofness of a structure. If the structure does not leak in the time of a conventional flood test, it is not going to be an issue unless the building is submerged!

 

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[Eurob]

Jim , more of this constant spinning of wording -- accommodating ones -- in which whatever works for a '' logical explanation '' gets dumped all over .

Grout and tiles are not waterproofed , the most inches of rain seen in a year are in a shower , etc. are just few employed by Schluter's presentations . If we are taking about waterproofing -- submerged applications included -- the membrane is supposed to take care of it -- ALL the time 24h/7days continuously -- . If we are talking about a niche that works in a shower -- also a steam shower -- , it better be waterproofed . The location is not relevant in a steam shower . The usage of a steam shower is also variable and uncontrolled once the steam shower is ok-ed to be used .

I can also say that the unmodified wicks water , holds it and if no slope is present on the bottom of the niche -- below the tiled area -- wicking will occur .

Quote from the Shower Niche Press release :

" The preformed shower niche provides installers with
increased speed during installation, combined with complete
waterproofing dependability. The corners of a traditional
shower niche are the most challenging area to waterproof
and can be very susceptible to standing water and mold
growth. ''


Can we go back at '' Just having fun '' ?

 

[Jadnashua]

Water tends to get wicked from the wetter areas to the dryer areas - kind of obvious, but still needs to be stated. But, there's very little that can hold water when using a membrane. And, once the surface dries, the water moves towards that outer surface. It's a bit different with a conventional shower - with a porous, thick mudbed, you add in gravity, and that will get wet with constant use. It's very unusual to see wet, saturated tile in a surface membrane shower...it usually happens in situations where there's improper slope on the pan and water has pooled and can sink in rather than run off.

I understand and have frequently indicated that tile and grout are not waterproof, but, due their density and the opportunity to dry out, MUCH faster with a surface membrane, you just do not see flowing water beneath a membrane like the weeping you do in a conventional shower through a mudbed.

 

[Eurob]

I was referring to the niches , not the conventional shower pan .

And since the quote is from -- Schluter's press release -- and is referring to traditional shower niches .....

this is how I see a traditional shower niche .


May I remind you that in cases where the sealing of the grout is done , drying times will be increased -- quite substantial --. The water penetrates easier than it can get out .

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

I got a copy of the ANSI Material & Installation Standards mailed to me while I was away on vacation this past week. It was mailed by FedEx from Schluter. I assume it was sent to me by Dale Kempster since he said he would send me one so I could see how and what the different tests where all about.

Inside the standard book was Bulletin #6 from MMSA - we talked a little about efflorescence on that phone call a couple weeks back.

I found the bulletin above stuck into page 112. Someone highlighted for me section 4.5 Waterproofness (page 112) and 5.7 One-Hundred day water immersion shear test strength (page 113).


I won't get into how badly I screwed up my niche tests but 4.5.1 references specimens..... It says to get three 3"x3" specimens of the membrane as described in 3.1.1 (that talks mostly about how to test liquid or cementious membranes)... Once you have the three 3"x3" samples you use Annex 2: Hydrostatic Pressure Test - follow procedure A2.1 of ASTM D4068-01 except wait a period of 48 hours.

Now I'm not an engineer clearly. I thought the best way to test a niche was to fill it with water. I had no idea I need three 3"x3" test samples. Was I suppose to cut the niche up? That makes no sense. I can also find nothing in this section that talks about niches. Nothing at all.

I assume being the lay person I am that my method clearly was wrong since the official method requires the test subject to be 3"x3" - because I did not cut up the niche to be tested and because I do not have any ANSI testing gear how could I prove or not prove that the niche was waterproof.

Man - was I way off base.

I do find it interesting that there is no reference to tile and grout in this chapter.

Maybe I need to learn more about procedure A2.3 of the ASTM D4068-01

 

[Eurob]

John , I think you are looking in the wrong place -- ANSI standards -- . You should check the ASTM standards for the proper test methods .

However , all that is important in the lab or for a classification purpose , but is of no help for a site testing purpose . I think the test performed -- filling the niche with water -- is not at all different than the test performed -- filling the shower enclosure -- which is not an option -- waterproof test --. The duration of the test may be questionable , but it is relevant to understand it , especially if tile and grout ( thin set also ) are not considered waterproofed materials or have an important task -- primary defense from the aggressor -- water in this case -- .

To be fair to the process , the testing of the niche should also reflect the intended use -- vertical installation , tiled and grouted with flexible sealant at the changing of planes -- and then look at the whole assembly -- fair testing -- .