Newbie-Just Found You---Foreclosed House Rehab

[Sparking5]

Hi! Just recently found your great website and you lead me to tile your world...but long time before I am ready for that. Just trying to dewinterize this foreclosed house to fire up some plumbing fixtures.

Bought house from bank so no info, but basically not maintained for 50 years--fun times...Good times Ahead!. Am learning to work on shallow well jet pumps, pressure (bladder) tanks, cleaining ejectors this week.

This am I PM'd Plumber1 directly instead of posting because I felt in dire need of some info. ALso, he lives somewhat within my area. I'm no dummy. He hasn't had a chance to see PM yet or was scared off by it so maybe I better post like I am suppose to.

I'll go get what I wrote to him and post later. Current system photo below. Notice it does have a new pressure tank, new pressure gauge & switch.

Bye, Pam

 

[Sparking5]

I just bought a foreclosed house right next to my Mom in Michigan. I am attempting to dewinterize and give lots of "love" to this house that has not been maintained for nearly 50 years! I didn't like the house but seemed the thing to do.

I am an electrician by trade & an avid DIY'er. Most of the time successful if given enough time and plans! After this house I may have to slit my wrists.

Situation: Pump will not turn off, dances between 29-31 psi. Local water is hard, iron, rust and runs thru black coal layer.

I have learned alot about shallow well jet pumps, pressure (bladder) tanks, pressure switches this week.

My Dad was a master electrician that really seemed to know anything about a house but he passed away last august. That's why I bought this beatup house next to my elderly Mom. It was well-built in 1940, solid foundation, good bones.

All electric and water was shut off in nov 2005 til feb 2006. I did not bother w/ a home inspection cause I figured what I could not judge myself was messed up anyway.

(Sorry for long message).

House revival plan...1st demo'd some walls & gutted mstr bath, cleaned forced air ducts well & have furnace running so now on water.

Turned off all shut off valves & capped open pipes. Detached shallow F & W, 3/4 hp shallow jet pump & newer 20 gal bladder pressure tank caused it seemed like the thing to do. While outdoors cleaning the tank of some rust buildup on backside I discovered a pinhole near top so junked it (?) and bought a 30 gal at local plumbing supply store (Not "Big Box" store).

Cleaned exterior of pump, bought new galvanized fittings for (T, Elbow & 2 nipples) from pump discharge to poly pipe to new tank (no drain valve for tank?).

Reassembled system as it was, primed pump ok but pump not turn off, but good water volume at kit sink & an outdoor faucet.

Then pressure switch started arcing, contacts bad so replaced w/ new. 30/50 switch, 28 pounds in empty new tank checked w/ a digital tire gauge.

I was calling the local plumbing supply daily for consulations. Have ruled out most things on troubleshoot charts.

I put heat (propane torch) twice at poly pipe to incoming pump nipple to ensure air tight on advice from plumb shop. Keeps prime. Installed new pressure gauge just for kicks. Pressure of 30 maintained in tank when off so no downstream leaks.

Now, I pulled pump again to clean ejector and check valve at bottom of poly pipe. (This system looks like a backwoods special to me. I expect to put in a new well & system in future and certainly won't drink the water til I send a sample to state lab).

Today I'll clean the ejector thoroughly, measure well bottom depth & static level, length of poly pipe suction line. Oh, and clean the check valve at very bottom of poly pipe. This suction line consists of 1 single run of poly pipe w/ check valve/backflow valve at very end. No add'l fittings...nothing fancy here. 20'-25' long but i'll measure today and blow it out w/ compressor to make sure it is clear.

I dropped 4 gal of ultra lemo bleach down open "casing" to well about 4 weeks ago. But once I get system runing I'll re shock chlorinate and let rest to all fixtures, flush bleach out, wait appropriate time then send in sample. IF I EVER GET IT RUNNING!!! I mean STOP running!

Today I have been researching how to clean a nozzle in ejector but no info. I've looked at exploded views of pumps and think it is deep within a white plastic narrow cone shaped piece in ejector.

I'm also wondering if I should expose the impeller since I have the pump readily accessible now. Think I will. What the hell...In for a penny....

I try to DIY anything I can...like my Dad. I saw a quote I realy liked this am at this website. Something like, "I don't call a part dead until I prove it to myself".

So, if I need a new pump after all, at least I learned alot this week so far and can use it later. Right!

It would be a drag if I don't have enough water in well.

End of part ...Maybe you need to take a bathroom break before you read the rest of story/situation.

Bye, Pam

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Sparking5]

Hi...Me Again!
(part 2)

I'm pretty sure the electric water htr is shot cause like all there everything is corroded, rust build up etc. Tank nearly rusted thru at bottom (only 4 yrs old) AND htr ran directly off meter to individual fuse box w/ fuses still in. So, yahoo winterizing crew drained htr but failed to remove fuses so when bank & selling realtor had electric turned back on htr ran for weeks empty before I discovered it. That happened before I closed but suppose they won't buy me a new htr. Maybe a warranty from manu for the tank skin failure?

This headache house does have alot of potential. An advantage of not being maintained and remodeled over the last 5 decades has saved the original hardwood oak floor until 4 layers of flooring, solid trim and doors. Lots of charm and great location but plumbing and electrical a nightmare!

I guess, after writing this book, I am asking how to clean that nozzle well and what/how do I clean rest of pump parts. And, what do you think in general or any other suggestions? I do plan to slowly open to check each plumb fixture. I already worked on a toilet and kit sink supply and drain.

I need to move into this house quickly so I can get my existing house ready as a rental & $ for new mortgage. I plan to move in as soon as I get running water. I guess I do have running water so I think I'll finish moving in tomorrow. It is alittle inconvient to walk downstairs to manually turn off pump but I did install a pressure switch w/ an add'l lever switch for off-start-auto. I can shower at my Mom's next door.

P.S. I think I should start dating a well/pump/plumber man.

I do not expect to take much of your time on a regular basis. I just need alittle help to get this house going.

I thank you in advance for any time or info you can offer.

I am now off to the hellhole basement. Wish me luck.

Signed, Sparkie aka Plumber Pam

A before and current photo of Mstr Bath. Planning on ding some plumbing & tiling soon too.

 

[Jadnashua]

The hw tank is shot I think. The rust isn't good, and you will almost certainly need new heating elements. GIven the rest of the tank's condition, the likelyhood of getting those out and replacing are not good. Sometimes it takes awhile on the weekend here to get responses...so, don't despair.

 

[Sparking5]

Thanks for the reply Jim. I am bouncing back & forth between T. Love & Tile Your World, but using some of the same photos & posts. It's getting alittle confusing...learning to resizing photos, keeping track of what I posted where, which photos are right size. Heck, I'm getting a headache. maybe I better get out of the puter chair and go wash that damn pump like I said I was going to, for a change of pace.

Where did the day go? It is one hr shorter today.

Bye, Pam

 

[Sparking5]

Well Depth

I just measured the well. The depth from cellar floor to bottom of well is 35' plus 2' of 3" galvanized pipe called casing, right?

The depth of the water is 24' from bottom of well to top of water, static right?

The existing poly pipe is 27' less about 6' tween pump to cellar floor casing area. (I forgot to measure it).

So, that means the poly pipe is submerged in 8-9' of water and backflow/check valve (same difference?) is about 15' above bottom of well.

I dragged the pump into my current kitchen to get to impeller. BUT, I removed the 4 bolts to pump body on motor side but they will not seperate. There are 4 more bolt into the motor and a metal base but I do not see why they would interfere w/ it coming apart unless something inside is still attached. Or do I need to get my friend the sledge hammer and gently persuade it?

I think I'll drag all of it to local plumbing shop for an in-person and in-pump consultation. Good thing they like me there. I can show them everything from check valve to suction line to discharge port on pump.

Have I wore out my welcome here yet?

Bye, Pam

 

[Speedbump]

I think you are saying it is 11 feet to top of water from pump. If so, the jet is probably plugged. The nozzle is what will be plugged not the venturi tube. If the pump is full of scale, it will probably plug again and again. New pump might be the answer.

I hope there is some type of well seal on top of that 2" casing where the poly goes down. Otherwise the bleach won't keep the well sanitized long.

bob...

 

[Sparking5]

Thanks Speedbump. The old sanitary seal was laying on the basement floor so I have a new one that I will install when get pump going.

The 11' is from top of water in well to top of casing then travels horizontally about 5' to the pump.

The jet ejector assembly was full of hard and soft black crude (coal, lime, iron?) when I removed it. I don't know if I have it clean enough. I bet this is the first time it has been taken apart. I don't know the age of pump yet but maybe I can get a few more months out of it before I pay to get a more modern deep well and submersible pump.

Thanks

This pump has always kept prime for me and sufficient volume of water. Would a vacuum leak between pump and tank cause lack of pressure buildup?

 

[Speedbump]

Pam,

A suction leak can keep the pump from priming (pumping) at all. If it pumps some water, the leak is not the total problem. The jet being plugged or the impeller volutes having trash in them would be the culprit.

bob...

 

[Sparking5]

Thanks Bob,

I thought I had it solved today. I dragged that damn pump & suction line into local plumb shack. I had the ejector removed so they could give me an idea if I cleaned the nozzel well enough. I can't see to the bottom of the venturi. He said I had multiple locations that could of been sucking air w/ the existing setup.

They sold me some new brass connectors to replace the 2" nipple that the suction poly line had attached to and a new gasket to replace the one between the ejector & pump body. I was told to coat the cardboard/cork-like gasket w/ Crisco or butter. This gasket was for another brand (Wayne) of pump but close in size.

I recleaned and flushed everything I could to remove hard water crap in both directions and shop vac'd it too!.

Pipe doped all threads, got tight, heated poly pipe to incoming nozzle, and reassembled all. Primed pump and..........gauge dances tween 29-31.......AGAIN!!! DOes not turn off.

I got no problem buying a new pump if that is what it needs. I did not yet gain access to the impeller to check. I atttempted last night but couldn't get motor & pump body apart. (Maybe I gotta take every darn bolt off I can see plus use a sledgehammer to open it? That would probably solve my problem cause then I would be convinced I need a new pump.) Ha!

***Just had an idea***

I should call the manu to get age of pump plus see if they have a history of problem getting a good seal tween ejector & pump body. I noticed today as I was removing the remaining pretty blue caulk-like sealing compound & old papery gasket that maybe this unit needs more than butter to get a airtight seal there???????????

OK...That's about Plan O or P by now. Whatever! At least I got heat and running water, sortof. Today, I also got that frozen nut off the toilet tank bolt so I can replace w/ new to stop that tank leak. Til then I will happily pail flush the remaining toilet from water from tub, then walk down 2 floors to basement to manually turn off pump. Now onto the plugged lav sink drain in wall.

At it again toorrow.

 

[Sparking5]

Old Poly Pipe Suction Line

**Another Idea***

Maybe the existing poly pipe suction line has a hole in it? I happened to flip it around, end for end today when I shoved it down the well casing. But if that was the case, based on my well measuring yesterday...the area that before was in the air near pump is now under water and have same problem.

Just a thought.

 

[Speedbump]

It still sounds like a plugged jet or impeller.

bob...

 

[Sparking5]

OK...Jet or impeller. I did get the nozzel cleaner and seemed to allow more air or water thru when I had it loose in my hands so that leaves impeller. This week I'll pull the pump again and get to that impeller.

Of course by now I would of saved alot of time & frustration by buying a new pump weeks ago but look at the fun I would of missed. Seriuosly, I did get much more familiar w/ pumps, presure tanks & wells. And I am trying not to have to buy everything in the first month of ownership.

Thanks for the advice & assistance!
Bye!

 

[Sparking5]

Got Wate?....YES!!!

"Got Water?"......YES!!!!

Hi!

Just thought I'd let you know I finally have the pump working. I believe I had several problems but plugged nozzle was the main one. I attempted to clean it repeatedly but since I did not realize exactly what it looked like at bottom of venturi & cone Iwas not aggressive enough. A tech today told me how to clean it in future w/ a heavier guage wire via bottom plug. So simple finally.

That was after I had the pump broke down into the 3 components, broke the impeller removing it wrong, replaced rotary seal, gave the guts a muraictic acid (sp?) bath, pulled pump 3 times, etc, etc.....

But I learned alot!

It may still need alittle tweaking.

Bye

 

[Speedbump]

I hope you gave the pump a final rinse in dissolved baking soda, it helps take some of the smell out as well as neutralizing the acid.

I guess I could have been a little more clear of how a jet is configured, but look at all the experience you would have missed.

Glad you got it going.

bob...

 

[Gary Slusser]

ummmm a 2" well was it and 4 gallons of Lemon bleach!!! That's a no no. And then not to pump it off for maybe days. Any galvanized should be partially eaten. Adding junk to the water to plug up the pump... BUT it's no good for water quality so if there is a next time, use no more than say 2 cups to a quart at most.

 

[Sparking5]

Oops! I saw your comments last week about rinsing pump w/ baking soda after the muraitic acid bath and not using that HUGE quantity of bleach.

Well, I didn't know about the baking soda.

Bleach: A few years ago the supervisor at the local city water treatment plant told me to dump 5 gal of bleachdown anotherwell and leave it for a weekend. He seemed to be intelligent. Maybe that was ok because that house was all pvc & some copper.

So, I thought 4 gals would be fine. When I do it again, I'll use less.

I think most of the bleach did not reach the galv pipe. Mainly ran thru copper.

Thanks

 

[Gary Slusser]

But you poured the bleach down the well and isn't the well 2" galvanized pipe, or am I not remembering that right?

You only need enough chlorine to disinfect the volume of water in the well and the zone around the well if possible, and then leave .2 to 1.5 ppm of free chlorine in the water. Free chlorine is that part of the total chlorine that can still disinfect. Hopefully I sound as intelligent as the water company dude... lol He should stick with municipal water and leave residential water to water treatment guys experienced with treating residential well water.

Galvanized is seriously attacked by chlorine. And never use scented bleach in potable water. Actually you aren't supposed to be using anything other than FDA approved for potable water use type chlorine. Read the label on the bleach bottle; at least Clorox has a warning on the lable.

 

[Sparking5]

Yes Gary, you are right and you do sound intelligent. I forgot about the actual well casing when I said most of the bleach did not "reach galv pipe". I meant the supply linesw/in house which are galvanized.

The casing is 3 or 4",I forget at the moment. So,the city water treatment plant supervisor was wrong. Also, maybe if matters much if one is talking deep vs shallow well.

I just looked...It's a 3" steel pipe, walls about 3/16-1/4" thick...Galvanized right? Has a 1" poly pipe for suction. I got a brand new, in box, Simmons well seal that I am not ready to put on yet. I will be shocking system again after I try swabbing the casing. (I saw a reference for it at the Michigan State envirnomental dept). That's all after I get all plumbing fixtures running so I can get the chlorinated water to them to soak.

Thanks Again!

Bye

 

[Sparking5]

Hi!...I'M BACK! Pump Lost Prime Now?

Hi!

Remember Me?

I haven't done much plumbing since I got this damn pump running cause still readying former house as a rental. SOmetimes I am so slowwwwwwwwwww.

The foreclosed house palace I am "camping out" in:

Just before I left to join my daughter for 2 weeks, who is working in Brazil (free hotel, etc), the friggin' pump acted up. I let it wait for me til I returned to US.

One night, about 5 minutes after a normal run to fill pressure tank, I heard the pump start again. It seemed to run longer than the normal 1-2 minutes, guage hoovering around 30 again, so I unplugged the electrical. Next morning I looked at it and gauge at zero and no water flow. Overnight, a slow leak on a outdoor water faucet w/ hose drained down the tank.

This is the first time I haven't had water flow. I am thinking it lost it prime, right? I just returned from Brazil and have not worked on it yet. Funny, I stayed in deluxe, posh hotel in Brazil. Now I gotta pail flush my tiolet after getting water from my mom's hose next door. Good thing I am flexible and low maintenance.

Lost prime...maybe a slight leak on suction line end?

Any socceer fans? I watched Brazil's first game while in Brazil at a restaurant. It is an unofficial holiday when they play. The whole world of Brazil stops, goes on strike for 3 hrs to watch the game, then go back to work. They play Japan today and will probably win which puts them in finals, I believe. That contry might go up in flames w/ joy if they win it for the 6th time. My dau is still over there so I need to make sure she is in a safe place when they play...stampeded by a cheering crowd, accidently injured by partying fans or other.

Brazil Photos:

1. Dancing in streets after winning 1st gameoutside a local bar/club.

2. They learn early to celebrate and cheer futebol (soccer).

I cracked my rib in the floowing photo.