New Whole House Carbon Filter & Water Softener

[ditttohead]

As stated earlier, Huffy, Cannondale. Yugo, Honda, you can make up your own comparison. Both are acceptable, and both have "Warranties". One company simply takes other companies designs and ideas, runs it to China to get the cheapest labor and material, makes a little effort to make sure they don't have a catastrophic failure, and if they do, haha, were in China... Sue us... I cant tell you how many times I heard that from companies when I was doing the claims with another company that focused their business on being the low price leader. Buy whatever you want, in fact, you should just get something from Home Depot, it is much lower cost than the Can, and in my opinion, you would be better served buy it rather than buying a knockoff.

Efficiency is a matter of settings. I can set any Fleck or Clack softener to use 16 gallons of water per regeneration, and to give you thousands of gallons of softened water, but I also know the water quality will suck, the resin will fail in a few years, and you will have lots more problems than if I installed a system and programmed it for slightly lowered efficiencies. All of these "Super efficient!" systems are for the most part a joke, a marketing scam and highly problematic. Most of the guys who have worked the field on this site remember the "Sensor" controllers, guaranteeing nearly 100% system efficiency, and about 2 years later, we bypassed the device to get rid of all the problems. I am currently working with a company in Europe who has the highest efficiency system I have ever seen, and they refuse to listen to my advice as to why their resin beds fail after 1 year in a small residential application. To me, the answer is obvious, but their "engineers" don't see it because it is not what it shows them on paper. A lack of field experience is an engineers worst enemy.
And in case you still haven't figured it out, due to potential lawsuits by companies that are too sensitive, most guys on this site will only give vague opinions about the quality of components. You keep going back to a device that has been stated over and over to be less preferable to another device. We are not going to force you to buy a good high quality USA made system, you can buy the Chinese knock off if you want, that is fine. But when it has problems, your support on this site will likely be silence as I doubt anyone on this site who offers up their time and free advice will want to bother wasting time discussing a cheap knock off.

 

[lepa71]

I don't think you know anything about patent law and probably nothing about global economy. You can't sell product in US if you are in infringement of a patent. Do you have any proof that clack parts are made in the US? I would like to see it, please. A car is a car. It has 4 wheel, seats, motor and other things. Some of them are luxury, but not necessary made better(german car) and some of them simple and work fine. It's all about price/value ratio. As I read somewhere clack was born from engineers who left Fleck to design their own valve. In this case, you would say that they still the idea from Fleck as "knock off" and made it better. So that would be ok, but if another company like Canature does it, it's not ok, because they outsource their parts to China. Here is the history of Water Treatment companies. http://www.wqpmag.com/20-20 Canature was around for long time sense 1968.

Efficiency is a matter of settings.

Efficiency is not just a settings.

you should just get something from Home Depot, it is much lower cost than the Can, and in my opinion, you would be better served buy it rather than buying a knockoff.

You can't just throw word like this without anything behind it.

One company simply takes other companies designs and ideas, runs it to China to get the cheapest labor and material, makes a little effort to make sure they don't have a catastrophic failure, and if they do, haha, were in China... Sue us... I cant tell you how many times I heard that from companies when I was doing the claims with another company that focused their business on being the low price leader.

I don't really know what you do for a living, but statements like this makes me wonder... I showed this thread to the CAN guy who can install either clack or canature. He stated many times to me that clack is a very very good valve and he is not bashing competitors products, but he believes that CAN565 is now with their latest changes is almost as good as clack.

And in case you still haven't figured it out, due to potential lawsuits by companies that are too sensitive, most guys on this site will only give vague opinions about the quality of components.

This is total BS. Forums are covered as a free speech specially if you don't sell anything to the public throw this forum. You guys are not giving any legal advises. All of this are your opinions.

At the end I still don't get the answers to my questions. The only answer I get "has been addressed previously." Why fine mesh is not recommended? Why can't I overfill an extra resin?

As for WS1 vs WS1EE version. Talked to Clack guy and he spoke to his suppler. Supplier said the a lot of guys who sells Clack don't like EE version and prefer original WS1. They are in front of the customer. So something is not right there either.

Also based on your earlier statement that my system is bulletproof . Well it looks like it not to me, because it failed to produce soft water. And it a fleck.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bannerman]

At the end I still don't get the answers to my questions. The only answer I get "has been addressed previously." Why fine mesh is not recommended? Why can't I overfill an extra resin?

Perhaps you may want to go back and re-read each of the responses to your posts.

 

[lepa71]

OK. How do I truly test my current system? How long should my system have lasted? I know that my current system is 0.75 cuft based on tank size. Also my concern with taller tank is a humidifier air tube as you can see in one of the pictures. In the winter, it will get really hot and I'm worried that the plastic from valve would get too close to it if I use 48" tall tank.

 

[ditttohead]

This is getting boring. Like we said, make your choice, most of the pros on this site already know patent laws, infringement etc, since we are dealing with it regularly as our designs are constantly run to China to be knocked off. We don't need a lesson... but thanks.

Clack made their valve very unique compared to Fleck, they also greatly improved many of its designs and forced Fleck to step up their game considerably. The Chinese companies have simply taken the 5600 valve body, internals, powerhead etc and copied it in every way. Then they add a cover to make it look like a Clack or Fleck... truly innovative... And it is not just one company that you mentioned here, it is several, and these companies are constantly trying to outcheap each other. Fleck and Clack are always trying to out-quality each other with innovative designs and product offerings that excel.
Fine Mesh resin commonly causes flow issues, especially when it starts to break down since it is already a poor performer for flow rates... but since you read online that it is the best... lol
Overfilling a tank... resin and most filtration medias that are intended to last for potentially decades require cleaning, the media requires expansion room so that it can reclassify and clean itself properly. Typical industry standards are Seam to seam (domes are not typically included in the equation) the media should be 2/3 of the tank height, the remaining 1/3 (thus the term 50% freeboard, 50% being the depth of the media) to allow this process to occur effectively. There are more reasons, but I assume you read online somewhere that this is not important, nor is gravel...

I don't think you realize that several of the people offering their advice and assistance to you have decades of field experience, You have a reshource here that I have not seen on any other site. Most sites have a single guy offering advice that will assist you in purchasing their specific equipment offerings. You may have noticed that the recommendations have been very consistent over many years on this site. Their are Kinetico guys, Clack guys, Fleck guys ( I am more of a Fleck guy myself) on this site, yet all of them have said consistently for many years on this site the same thing about big box equipment, cheap knock-offs etc. This is because we are the ones in the field dealing with the junk that companies put out and we have to service them. To be quite honest, I stopped servicing big box units 10 years ago, and the Chinese knock-offs, I wont touch any more after a catastrophic failure occurred causing nearly 100K in property damage and the company did everything they could to get out of liability, it dragged on for years while they litigated. It probably cost them 50K in lawyers fees, the insurance finally had to give up and simply pay when the cause was an obvious failure of their junk. Pentai, Calck, John Guest, Jaco and other real companies have a tendancy to work with you, not against you. As a business owner, that is worth a lot more than saving $23.

 

[lepa71]

OK. A simple question. Now knowing my limitations size wise, picking clack as a valve and I can only fit 11x11 brine tank. I'm worried about heights of the resin tank as the valve unit will get too close to the humidifier air duck that gets hot in the winter. Could it melt the plastic on the valve? I don't think I get go to 12" wide resin tank, because of the code to leave enough space for path between the tank and the wall. If I use 12" wide tank I left with only 29" space. What should I tell a guys to build me?
example 1: 10x44 tank , ?? how much resin can I fit??, backwash filter? is it 8% crosslink or 10% crosslink resin. How much bedding?
example 2: If I shouldn't worried about heat 10x48 or even 12x48 , ?? how much resin can I fit??, backwash filter? is it 8% crosslink or 10% crosslink resin. How much bedding?

I also looked at our bill we were using about 40 gallons of water for 4 people. That includes when our current water softener was set to regenerate every 3 days. So somebody can take this into consideration . I believe our current system use 2 backwashes.
Here is the picture of the settings for salt usage.

 

[ditttohead]

OK. A simple question. Question implies one, this is many...

Now knowing my limitations size wise, picking clack as a valve and I can only fit 11x11 brine tank. I'm worried about heights of the resin tank as the valve unit will get too close to the humidifier air duck that gets hot in the winter. Could it melt the plastic on the valve? Use common sense, if it gets excessively hot, then of course it will melt plastic, it it gets warm and you leave a small air-gap, heat does not conduct well across an air space...

I don't think I get go to 12" wide resin tank, because of the code to leave enough space for path between the tank and the wall. If I use 12" wide tank I left with only 29" space. What should I tell a guys to build me? I cant figure this one out, maybe someone else can interpret this question

example 1: 10x44 tank , ?? how much resin can I fit?? APPROX. 1 TO 1.25 cf w/approx. 10-15 pounds of gravel,

backwash filter? ???, anyone got a clue?

is it 8% crosslink or 10% crosslink resin. Your choice, 8% is great for non or very low chlorinated supplies, 10% is better for chlorinated supplies or heavier use applications.

How much bedding? I assume you mean under-bedding, enough to cover the screen plus a couple inches, again, 10-15 pounds is normal for a 10" tank, 15-20 for a 12" tank

example 2: If I shouldn't worried about heat 10x48 or even 12x48 , ?? how much resin can I fit??, backwash filter? is it 8% crosslink or 10% crosslink resin. How much bedding? 10x48 1.25 - 1.5... or just slightly more than the 10x44, it is only 4" taller, and it depends on the freeboard... it is not that critical, be sure to leave approximately 1/3" of the non domed area void of media.

I also looked at our bill we were using about 40 gallons of water for 4 people. So you only use 10 gallons of water per person per day, I am not buying it. Considering your old softener will use approximately 50+ gallons to regenerate every third day, that leaves you at less than 10 gallons of water per person per day, unless you are a hippie that never bathes or washes and you use the backyard as a toilet, something is wrong with your math.

That includes when our current water softener was set to regenerate every 3 days. So somebody can take this into consideration . I believe our current system use 2 backwashes.
Here is the picture of the settings for salt usage The old 5600 series have a double backwash, and double fast rinse. Not by design, but by the simple fact that it is a mechanical valve that uses a

 

[lepa71]

I also looked at our bill we were using about 40 gallons of water for 4 people. So you only use 10 gallons of water per person per day, I am not buying it. Considering your old softener will use approximately 50+ gallons to regenerate every third day, that leaves you at less than 10 gallons of water per person per day, unless you are a hippie that never bathes or washes and you use the backyard as a toilet, something is wrong with your math.

I'm sorry I meant per person. The bill was showing 9800 gallons in 66 days and we had 4 people in the house.

backwash filter? ???, anyone got a clue?

I think it a filter that prevents for resin to escape.

How tall the whole unit could be if the tank is 48" tall with clack installed? I can than see how much gap is left.

I don't think I get go to 12" wide resin tank, because of the code to leave enough space for path between the tank and the wall. If I use 12" wide tank I left with only 29" space. What should I tell a guys to build me? I cant figure this one out, maybe someone else can interpret this question

If you look at the 20160322_144628.jpg picture. It's the distance between the resin tank and the wall where the light switch is. I believe there is a city code what the distance should be. If the tank is going to be 12" I would only have 29" between the resin tank and the wall. I hope you now understand what I'm talking about.

OK. A simple question. Question implies one, this is many...

It was one question. What should I tell a guys to build me?

That includes when our current water softener was set to regenerate every 3 days. So somebody can take this into consideration . I believe our current system use 2 backwashes.
Here is the picture of the settings for salt usage The old 5600 series have a double backwash, and double fast rinse. Not by design, but by the simple fact that it is a mechanical valve that uses a

What will the new system do? How much water will new system use and how much the old one is using?

Thank you

 

[lepa71]

Anybody?

 

[ditttohead]

A good quality system doesn't need a filter to prevent resin from escaping. Many companies go cheap on the riser tube/bottom screen, these are prone to failure. A high end bottom screen and a gravel under bedding will almost eliminate this problem.

Approx. 57"

I don't know your city code, put a "wet location" cover over the light switch

Soften water, old system uses some salt and water, new system will be more efficient

 

[Bannerman]

I think by 'filter', the poster was referring to an upper basket to prevent resin from being back washed from the tank. With the appropriately sized tank for the resin quantity, an upper basket will not be required. Reliance on an upper basket to prevent media loss implies there is too much media in the tank and that back washing will not achieve the appropriate amount of bed expansion to clean the resin and flush out debris.

I had suggested moving over the laundry equipment as I expect the expanded location between the laundry equipment and water heater, would permit installation of a larger softener appropriate for the requirements, without concern as to height. As the softener would then be located towards the back wall, there also would be no further concern with blocking the hallway, heat from the humidifier or access to the water meter. If not moving the softener from the current location, suggest flexible connectors to permit the ability to move the softener slightly as needed. http://falconstainless.com/

While a larger softener will likely use slightly more water for each regeneration cycle, I expect demand regeneration of an appropriately sized unit will occur not more often than 1X weekly, not every 3 days as now occurs. Over the course of each year, regeneration will utilize substantially less water than the current undersized time-clock initiated softener.

2 cuft unit set to 6 lbs/cuft = 40K usable capacity.

3 people X 40 gal/day/person x 25 gpg = 3000 grains/day utilized
40K / 3000 = 13 days between regeneration cycles

4 people X 40 gal/day/person X 25 gpg = 4000 grains/day
40K / 4000 = 10 days between regeneration cycles

5 people X 40 gal/day/person X 25 gpg = 5000 grains/day
40K / 5000 = 8 days between regeneration cycles

 

[lepa71]

Is it true that with bigger tank size I would need a bigger salt tank? If I would go with 10x54 I would need 15x17 salt tank.

As for moving washer and dryer and putting water softener between washer/dryer and water heater. The air pipe for dryer will need to be adjusted as well as plumbing to bring water on the other side of the water heater.

I dropped the CAN565/Clack guy as his proposal does not make sense. He wanted to do 10x48 tank with 2 cuft resin mesh etc... Also found more info about his company ethics and simply don't want to deal with it.

So went back to highly rated clack guy. This is what his proposal is. 9x48 tank with 1 cuft resin and 11x11( as what I have today) tank with board. Salt setting would be 12 lb of salt per regeneration. He thinks it will regenerate every 4-5 days. His supplier does not carry 10x48 nor 12x48. He has done a lot of them in my particular area and says that with my space concerns his system will work fine. He may be also right that I'm over analyzing things too much.

What do you guys think? Can I may be push him to put 1.25 cuft resin with or without upper basket?

Also any recommendations for water softener for rentals? I have a duplex and want to put one in each side. The clack was suggesting 5600 economizer( I believe same as I have today). I need to be cost effective. Any others may be refurbish or sears/homedepot?

Thanks

 

[Bannerman]

If I would go with 10x54 I would need 15x17 salt tank.

Dittohead answered that in post #51. This post is # 73.

The air pipe for dryer will need to be adjusted as well as plumbing to bring water on the other side of the water heater.

I expect extending the dryer exhaust would be a fairly simple task. As far as plumbing, unless you are replacing your current softener with an identical one, there is likely going to be some plumbing alterations that are necessary. Is it worthwhile to resolve ALL of the concerns you expressed, by simply rerouting a few plumbing lines?

What do you guys think? Can I may be push him to put 1.25 cuft resin with or without upper basket?

Dittohead answered that with regards to a 10" tank in post #67. Anytime more volume is installed in the tank than the proper quantity, then the media may not be fully expanded to the specified amount during backwash, thereby impacting the ability to clean the media which can result in shortened media life.

His supplier does not carry 10x48 nor 12x48.

Suggest you contact a different dealer to discuss if they can satisfy your requirements.

The clack was suggesting 5600 economizer( I believe same as I have today).

Your current control valve is not the Economizer model. The Economizer is a metered version of the 5600 whereas yours is programmed on set days of the week. Compare the cost of a Clack system vs a Fleck version.

Salt setting would be 12 lb of salt per regeneration. He thinks it will regenerate every 4-5 days.

A 1 cuft softener has a total capacity of 30K grains when regenerated with 15 lbs of salt. (salt efficiency = 2000 grains/pound)
3 people = 30K / 3000 = 10 days between regeneration
5 people = 30K / 5000 = 6 days between regeneration

@ 12 lb setting = 28K grains capacity (salt efficiency = 2333 grains/pound)
3 people = 28K / 3000 = 9 days between regeneration
5 people = 28K / 5000 = 5 days between regeneration

@ 10 lbs - 27K grains capacity (salt efficiency = 2700 grains/pound)
3 people = 27K / 3000 = 9 days between regeneration
5 people = 27K / 5000 = 5 days between regeneration

@ 8 lbs = 24K grains capacity (salt efficiency = 3000 grains/pound)
3 people = 24K / 3000 = 8 days between regeneration
5 people = 24K / 5000 = 4 days between regeneration

Salt efficiency increases as the salt setting and regenerated capacity is reduced.

 

[lepa71]

Your current control valve is not the Economizer model. The Economizer is a metered version of the 5600 whereas yours is programmed on set days of the week.

This would be for my rental properties. For cost effectiveness, I was thinking to go with either Fleck 5600 Econominder or 5800.

Suggest you contact a different dealer to discuss if they can satisfy your requirements.

It seems that here in MN we have 2 whole sellers. One(Robert B. Hill Co) that does not carry 10" or 12" wide tanks. The other one is Canature Water group. Everybody who has an option for 10" or 12" wide tanks were really trying to sell me CAN565. Do I really want to go back to Canature for the tank? My options locally are limited.

One guy who sells Clack and FLeck5800 suggested that if I want to go with 1 cuft option he could install 10x35 tank. It seems with my space limitations I would have to go with 1 cuft softener. Any thoughts on 10x35 tank?

I expect extending the dryer exhaust would be a fairly simple task. As far as plumbing, unless you are replacing your current softener with an identical one, there is likely going to be some plumbing alterations that are necessary. Is it worthwhile to resolve ALL of the concerns you expressed, by simply rerouting a few plumbing lines?

You are right redirecting the dryer's exhaust is not an issue. The water pipes would have to go over water so it will not causing the issues in the future if water heater need to be replaced. There is also another door right across the washer and dryer. This not just utility room. It the go throw room from garage into the house( kitchen to be specifically). I will take couple more picture. May be it will clear up the misunderstanding.

Please accept my biggest thank you for helping me as much as you did.

 

[lepa71]

https://goo.gl/photos/e838QbqNCsf2A2YC9

Here is more pictures of that room. Any thoughts on 10x35 tank for 1 cuft? It feels too small.

 

[Reach4]

Post a picture like this where the yellow represents a tape measure tape with the numbers visible, or tell us what the number is. Also post the size of the tape case, so the height of the top of the tape measure case will be the sum. Have the end of the tape against the floor.

Have the tape carefully vertical and immediately against the far side of that existing tank.

 

[lepa71]

I measured from the floor to the air duct( top of your yellow line). It's 60" exact.

 

[ditttohead]

Considering how easy the job would be for you to do yourself, I would recommend buying it and installing it yourself. I am very surprised Hill co. does not have larger tanks, they are a commercial/industrial company. They may simply not be too interested in residential work.

 

[lepa71]

They are whole sellers in MN for residential. The small guys buy from them and to my surprise they don't even want to order other sizes tanks. One of the installers told that he had to push them hard to start selling 10x35 tanks with 1 cuft resin. He is going to try to get me 10x44 tank.

@dittohead
I thought Clack does not allow to sell their stuff online or it just applies only to valves units? The installer told me that he has to buy the whole unit( tank and valve) as a package. I know that Canature guys can get 10x47 canature tank locally.
What do you think abut 10x35 tank? Would it be enough for 1 cuft? Any online sellers for Clack?

Thanks

 

[Reach4]

I measured from the floor to the air duct( top of your yellow line). It's 60" exact.

How about putting a straight edge up the back of the tank and extending that up to the vent? Where does that hit?

I have a backwashing filter with a Fleck 5600SXT atop a 10x54 tank. The top of the controller is less than 63 inches from the floor. The controller is over an inch and a half inside of vertical lines on my tank in the direction of your humidifier pipe.

Moving your humidifier a few inches is not out of the question. A sheet metal person could do that fairly readily, presuming that there is not something out of the picture that would prevent moving that up or toward the wall.