New Whole House Carbon Filter & Water Softener

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, Questions and Answers' started by Zzyzx, Aug 30, 2012.

  1. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Joined:
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    Water systems designer, R&D, Technical Director
    Location:
    Ontario California
    After reviewing the picture you sent, the design has a common flaw we see with this system.

    1. The Valve is a canature, it can easily be replaced with a Clack WS1 or any Fleck other than the 7000 (due to the 32mm-1.05 adapter clearance issues).

    2. The tanks appear to be the same size. I will post pictures of our version of this design that we distribute. The GAC tanks diameter is always smaller. This is needed to ensure adequate backwashing of both medias. it should be calculated to within 20% of manufacturers recommendations. On you design, the GAC will be under backwashed, or the resin will be over backwashed. We have discussed this at length with many companies, but the concept seems to difficult to grasp, or they do not like the look of the tanks being different sizes.

    I will add more to this later, but I am late for Hockey, back to back games tonight, and 1 of my teams only has 5 players showing up, time for some iron man!
     
  2. Zzyzx

    Zzyzx New Member

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    Austin, TX
    A flaw? Does that mean the system will not soften or filter the water correctly?

    After speaking with the dealer, said he would have no problem replacing the Canature valve with the Clack valve. Will the Clack WS1 have the same ability that the Canuture valve has at back flushing both tanks? The dealer/installer told me he used the Canature valve specifically because the a dual backwashing capabilities, not because he was trying to put on a cheaper valve to make more profit, but to provide me with the features that my system requires without the expense of 2 Clack valves.

    So the Canature valve programmed correctly, does not have the ability to preform a proper backwash?

    Thank you for any more insight.
     
  3. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

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    Yep, it's posts like that that give me my clues about you. Ya sure like to brag, the consummate salesman. But you don't sell to the residential end user that posts here.

    Frankly I think you are all about the money.

    The question was, and reading later posts is still about the quality of the Canature control valve and the OP's system. In the time it took you to brag about yourself and run me down, you could have answered the question but no, you've put it off again but tell me, why are you so famous and yet anonymous here? You've given me enough clues but tell others why you aren't proud enough of your posts here to use your real name.
     
  4. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

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    But Gary, you don't sell to the consumer either. Me and a couple others are the only ones on here that actually sell, service and install.

    What is your hang up on the real name thing? I note that HJ, Valveman, Jadnashua, jimbo and most of the other mods here don't use their names either. Terry is the only one that does, well him and you and even you have no permanent address so it ain't like anyone can come knocking at your door is it? Most that don't use their real names either do it because they don't want to field phone calls and spam emails or more likely because way way back everyone used some kind of screen name. Why can't you respect anothers right to privacy? and moreover, what difference would it make to the discussion if we all used our real names? You have been slinging this same tired old crap for years now.
     
  5. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    Location:
    Ontario California
    That is all he has. Tired old retreaded trolling comments that are of no use to the OP or anyone else. He says I am all about the money. How much do I make from this board? How many people do I beg to go to my website? "Click here pleeeeeeease..." Even the training seminar I am doing next week is free. I am paying for the airfare, the hotel, the rental car... Big money maker there for me. Not only that, this training seminar is for a competitor. :)

    He is so worried about my real name, considering he gives out other executives personal office phone numbers when he gets mad at them, I am sure many people would understand why I dont advertise my name. And like you said, I actually have a permanent address and a job.

    Now to the OP's questions, if you beleive he uses a Canature valve in order to give you a better product, not to save money... I have a bridge for sale. Have him put on the Clack valve, and request an extra free injector, 1 size larger than the one that is designed for a 10" tank. I beleive the 10" tank is an E, ask him to give you a G injector so if there is any problem, it can be fixed easily by you, it will not require him to come out and adjust anything, you simply replace the injector with the next size up. Also, feel free to have this guy call me if needs any assitance in the future.

    Water softening resin and GAC require significantly different backwash rates.

    Water softener: 5 GPM per sq. ft, 10" tank 5x5x3.14/144x5 = approximately 2.5 GPM
    GAC: 10 GPM per sq. ft., 10" tank 5x5x3.14/144x10 = approximately 5+ gpm. Sorry, to lazy to get a calculator to give you exact numbers, but the GAC requires twice the backwash rate of resin. They either can slit the difference making both medias improperly backwashed, or one will be way under, oir way over.

    Notice my system below, 4 different diameter tanks, 4 different medias, all balanced. The softening resin is slightly over bacwashed, but I have adjusted the freeboard to accomodate this.

    prototype2.jpg
     
  6. Zzyzx

    Zzyzx New Member

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    He didn't say he installed the Canature valve because it was better then the Clack, he said he installed it because it preforms a function (backflush 2 tanks) that the Clack can't. I have asked several times if the Clack can preform that function, but still have not received an answer :confused:

    I will run this information by him to see what he says.

    I will run these statistics by him was well. Thanks for the information!
     
  7. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    Water systems designer, R&D, Technical Director
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Maybe I didnt define it clearly enough. The Clack valve has 1 minor disadvantage that other valves dont have. Fully adjustable cycle times. For 95% of applications, this is not an issue. For a twin tank system, the brine draw time will typically be extended slightly to allow for a little extra slow rinsing to occur ensuring the salt brine is completely gone when the system completes the regeneration. A Fleck SXT and Canature valves have adjustable cycle times. For the most part, the Clack will do just fine, but if there is ever a problem, we simply put in the next larger injector to overcome this.

    The Clack is absolutely a better valve. As is the Fleck. The Canature valves have started to pass some of the more difficult testing protocols that they have failed in the past. They are NSF, but this in itself does not indicate the valve is good, only that it does not impart dangerous impurities into the water.

    Sorry if I was not clear on that, hopefully this is more clear.

    The real test wouldbe to ask the question on this or any other board. "I have a ten year old Canature valve that is not working, should I repair it?" The answer will be a resounding "no", and to replace it with a high quality valve. The Canature valves are not junk like many valves are, but they certainly are not the same quality as Pentair or Clack Corp valves.

    If you notice on my system, it is similar to your design, just take to a more difficult level. Also, a 7000XTR was used for this prototype, I adjusted the brine draw to 120 minutes and I use a slightly smaller injector to maximize efficiencies during this weeks tests. All low TDS waste is diverted to irrigation, high TDS is diverted to sewer. The Grey box to the right of the softener uses an HM digital commercial TDS monitor controlling an Apollo motorized 3 way ball valve on the drain line.

    Turbidex in a 10" diameter tank 7-9 gpm backwash rate
    Softening resin in a 14" tank 5-6 GPM< more freeboard due to backwash rate
    KDf 55 in a 7" tank 7-8 GPM backwash rate
    GAC in a 12" tank 7-8 GPM

    As you can see, the tanks backwash rates are all within specifications, except for the softener, it is slightly high on the backwash, but an extended freeboard was calculated to correct for this.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2012
  8. Zzyzx

    Zzyzx New Member

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    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Yes, this is very clear to me now, thank you!

    The installer gave me 30 days to test the system. In a couple of weeks he will be coming out to test the water hardness among others. I'll run by the information that has been provided.

    Again, thanks for the insight. :)
     
  9. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    Water systems designer, R&D, Technical Director
    Location:
    Ontario California
    The system will work the same, Canature or Clack, it ismore of a longevity issue. Even the worst quality control valves we test will make through our 1 year simulator. The real question comes into the 10 year simulator, and our cycle testing.

    Ask him what DLFC he used and how he accomodated the variances in the tank diameters for the different medias. I will be honest, he wont be able to answer that since he bought the unit from a distributor as is, and most people dont understand this concept. Even the distributors of this unit dont understand it. It is good marketing, (1 Valve to control 2 tanks, saves water!) in reality, it is really just done to save some money on the expensive control valves. It does legitimately save some water, but that is the marketing apsect.

    Now, in all reality, the unit should be fine, even though the medias are not being properly backwashed. When we test medias, we have formulas, equations, rules, etc, that we follow to ensure the medias and the systems function in a very specific and repeateable way even when they are installed in warm or cold water, high DSI or low, municipal, or well. When a system is installed, there is so much safety factor built into the design that even if it installed completely impropoerly, it will suually still work for many years. Your unit is a good example. even though the backwash rates will be wrong, the resin and GAC will still probably last for many years without fail. When they are done right, the medias can last much longer, function better, and be more efficient.

    Hope this helps.
     
  10. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

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    Yes lead generation/prospecting costs money.

    Unless you own the wholesale only company you work for you don't have a web site and especially a web site for DIYer residential customers.

    Recall you told us all about an article you wrote awhile back (I read it) and it has a short bio on you? You said you weren't hiding who you are and didn't care if people knew who you are, so now you've changed your mind?

    About that "executive" and his name and phone number..., if you were honest you'd mention that he told all online dealers in a group email that for whatever reason if they could not service their online customers to give them his name, number and extension and he personally would get them parts etc.. He as done it in the past and again just last week for a customer of mine.

    And that you got that info from my forum where a copy of his email was posted and I posted it for my customers benefit since I was not going to be in business.

    It's about time.

    BTW, the article you mentioned in Jan. that you were writing for publication this Sept., did you get it done? Can we read it?

    BTW, what version of the Clack WS-1 are you referring to when you say the cycle times aren't adjustable on a Clack? IIRC there is none of its 4 versions that you can't adjust the length of time on.
     
  11. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

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    So after all your fluffing and puffing in your many replies in this thread, you finally got to the bottom line. We'll see if next time you can't get there much sooner.
     
    lepa71 likes this.
  12. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    Water systems designer, R&D, Technical Director
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Keep on trolling! :)
     
  13. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

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    Probably would have if not for having to field your nonsense LOL
     
  14. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

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    At least he got there. You never posted anything of use whatsoever.
     
  15. lepa71

    lepa71 New Member

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    Minnesota
    Sorry to bring this thread out of dead. Were you comparing Clack millennium WS1 948 to CAN 565? I'm researching the same thing. One thing that I see that CAN565 is more officiant than Clack using only 6lb /cu f where WS1 uses 10-12 lb. I have one guy who suggests to install Clack Millennium with 1 cuf regular resin and another to install Canature 565 with 2.o cuf mesh resin including backwash filter with additional 1 cuf carbon. I do feel that 2nd system is a little bit overkill, but I would be ok with it if the price is right. Both systems are priced at $950. I'm in MN with water hardness of 20-25.

    Any suggestions are appreciated.

    Thanks
     
  16. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    Water systems designer, R&D, Technical Director
    Location:
    Ontario California
    "Efficiency" is settable on almost any system. In all honesty, a downflow carbon tank with a proper sediment pre-filter can likely go for years in a residential application without being backwashed, hard to get any more efficient than that. But backwashing does have many small benefits. As to the softener, same thing goes. A Clack, Fleck, or any fake knockoff from China can be set to regenerate with 1 pound of salt per regeneration per cubic foot or 20 pounds per cubic foot. The pros and cons of high/low salting have been discussed on this board many times, but to keep it simple, just go with the real unit, not the imitation cheap knock off.

    I would ask if they have the "EE" version of the Clack softener valve over the standard 5 button designs. Recent upgrades to the programming of the 4 button "EE" version make this board my personal favorite of the Clack's.

    Also with 25 grains, I would recommend a larger system for greater efficiency. The 10x54 would be a better choice, it is 50% larger and should add only a small amount to the system cost.
     
  17. lepa71

    lepa71 New Member

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    Apr 4, 2016
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    Minnesota
    I can't do 3 tank install, I have only enough space for 2 tank( one for resin and one for salt). For salt tank I only have space for 11x11. As for resin tank I think I can do 10x48 max.

    The guy with CAN565 is putting more resin(2.0 cuf) and mesh one as the Clack would be only 1 cuf. Also other guys were saying that 1 cuf would be enough as they all know the area.

    As for "Efficiency" setting, I don't think we are talking about apples to apples ( 2.0 cuf vs 1.0 cuf)

    Does "EE" version consider to be a high efficiency as CAN565 is?

    Thanks
     
  18. Bannerman

    Bannerman Active Member

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    Mar 19, 2014
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Salt efficiency can be adjusted based on the number of pounds of salt to restore a given amount of capacity. A 1 cuft and 2 cuft softener can be programmed to be equally salt efficient but the frequency of regeneration will be twice as often with the smaller softener. For water efficiency, it is recommended to obtain a softener large enough to satisfy your soft water requirements without needing to regenerate more than 1X per week while using an efficient salt setting.

    A 6 lb/cuft salt setting in the 1 cuft softener, will restore 20K grains of capacity whereas a 6 lb/cuft salt setting in a 1.5 cuft will restore 30K and in a 2 cuft, will restore 40K. Since the salt settings are all based on lbs per cubic foot of resin, all the above have a salt efficiency of 3,333 grains per pound of salt.

    Increasing the salt setting to 8 lbs/cuft will increase the usable capacity of each to 24K, 36K and 48K with a salt efficiency of 3000 grains/lb.

    A 10 lb/cuft salt setting will increase capacity of each to 27K, 40.5K & 54K with a salt efficiency of 2700 grains/lb.

    Dittohead recommended obtaining the superior quality Clack valve over the questionable quality imported model. The model of control valve has no effect on efficiency, assuming all are demand initiated (metered) controls.

    Edited to add: A 1 cuft softener is most often contained in a 9" X 48" tank. A 1.5 cuft in a 10" X 54" tank and a 2 cuft in a 12" X 52" tank. The 10" X 48" tank you mentioned, is not large enough for 1.5 cuft of resin + gravel. A gravel underbed is highly recommended.

    Fine mesh resin provides a slight benefit when removing iron but as it increases flow restriction through the softener, it is not often recommended even when iron is present in the water.

    Softeners are not sized by 'area' but are sized according to the specific water hardness, iron and manganese levels and the water consumption of the home's occupants. You stated your hardness is 25 grains/gallon. How many occupants? Is this a municipal water supply or a private well?
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2016
  19. lepa71

    lepa71 New Member

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    Minnesota
    That was very informative. Thank you. It's a city water and we would have 3-5 people.

    I believe for canature 565 valves assembly is done here in MN with parts from china. The guy who would like to install CAN565 is modifying it, by putting bigger injectors, better piston and the inner tube 1.25" as well as 2cuft of fine mesh with I believe none gravel 15lb of underbed instead of standard 8lb. He also adds carbon catalytic media. The guy, who sells clack does use new WS1EE , is getting standard setup with 1 cuft resin 9x48 tank and whatever underbed amount there is. The clack guy explain to me that he would set it to use 12lb of salt and regeneration would happen every 4-5 days where is the CAN guy would set it to use either 3lb or 6lb of salt and it would be 8-9 days between regenerations. Also CAN guy has 10 years warranty for parts and labor and has been in business for over 30 year with good review. The guy with clack also has outstanding reputation in review and have been in the business for over 30 year. I'm not questioning either of theirs qualifications, but both of them are saying that I'm asking 80% more questions than other customers do.

    From what I gathered the CAN565 is a little bit more efficient than WS1.

    As for china part, it all depends quality control that CAN puts in place. It could be even better that American manufacturers. I know you guy would come with cars analogy, but look at GM and their quality and life expectancy for their car vs Japanise and Korea's car.

    The only thing I'm questioning. The CAN guy uses shark bites connectors and hoses instead of hard pipes. What do you think about that.
     
  20. Bannerman

    Bannerman Active Member

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    Mar 19, 2014
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Your city water will be chlorinated so any iron and manganese will have been oxidized and will no longer contribute to the load on the softener.

    It seems that both dealers are trying to push their stock systems without recommending an appropriate system for your requirements.

    The 1 cuft system is well undersized for your requirements so he is attempting to provide more capacity by upping the salt setting. He may as well specify 30K grains capacity with a 15 lb salt setting which has a salt efficiency of 2000 grains/lb. He should be recommending a larger system using the same control valve and programmed with a more efficient salt setting.

    You have no iron to remove so fine mesh resin is of no benefit and is more likely to be a detriment for the flow restriction issue specified previously.
    If he is planning on adding catalytic carbon to the same tank as the resin, that is not recommended as each media have unique backwash requirements. In addition, a properly sized tank for 2 cuft of media (12" X 52") does not have enough capacity for an additional amount of media so the lighter weight media is likely to be backwashed to drain during the regeneration cycle. If an upper basket is installed to prevent the loss of media, the softening resin will not have adequate space to expand during the backwash phase of the regen cycle. The carbon media needs to be placed in a separate tank.

    The injector and DLFC (drain flow control) will always need to be changed to correspond to the tank size being used.

    The control valve will only perform based on the parameters that are programmed.

    none ??

    This online calculator: http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/sizing.php specifies at minimum, a 2 cuft system for 3 people, a 2.5 cuft for 4 people and 3.5 cuft for 5 people at 60 gals/day/person and 25 gpg hardness.
     
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