New Whole House Carbon Filter & Water Softener

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by Zzyzx, Aug 30, 2012.

  1. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,791
    Location:
    Ontario California
    After reviewing the picture you sent, the design has a common flaw we see with this system.

    1. The Valve is a canature, it can easily be replaced with a Clack WS1 or any Fleck other than the 7000 (due to the 32mm-1.05 adapter clearance issues).

    2. The tanks appear to be the same size. I will post pictures of our version of this design that we distribute. The GAC tanks diameter is always smaller. This is needed to ensure adequate backwashing of both medias. it should be calculated to within 20% of manufacturers recommendations. On you design, the GAC will be under backwashed, or the resin will be over backwashed. We have discussed this at length with many companies, but the concept seems to difficult to grasp, or they do not like the look of the tanks being different sizes.

    I will add more to this later, but I am late for Hockey, back to back games tonight, and 1 of my teams only has 5 players showing up, time for some iron man!
  2. Zzyzx

    Zzyzx New Member

    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    A flaw? Does that mean the system will not soften or filter the water correctly?

    After speaking with the dealer, said he would have no problem replacing the Canature valve with the Clack valve. Will the Clack WS1 have the same ability that the Canuture valve has at back flushing both tanks? The dealer/installer told me he used the Canature valve specifically because the a dual backwashing capabilities, not because he was trying to put on a cheaper valve to make more profit, but to provide me with the features that my system requires without the expense of 2 Clack valves.

    So the Canature valve programmed correctly, does not have the ability to preform a proper backwash?

    Thank you for any more insight.
  3. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Yep, it's posts like that that give me my clues about you. Ya sure like to brag, the consummate salesman. But you don't sell to the residential end user that posts here.

    Frankly I think you are all about the money.

    The question was, and reading later posts is still about the quality of the Canature control valve and the OP's system. In the time it took you to brag about yourself and run me down, you could have answered the question but no, you've put it off again but tell me, why are you so famous and yet anonymous here? You've given me enough clues but tell others why you aren't proud enough of your posts here to use your real name.
  4. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,071
    Location:
    Maine
    But Gary, you don't sell to the consumer either. Me and a couple others are the only ones on here that actually sell, service and install.

    What is your hang up on the real name thing? I note that HJ, Valveman, Jadnashua, jimbo and most of the other mods here don't use their names either. Terry is the only one that does, well him and you and even you have no permanent address so it ain't like anyone can come knocking at your door is it? Most that don't use their real names either do it because they don't want to field phone calls and spam emails or more likely because way way back everyone used some kind of screen name. Why can't you respect anothers right to privacy? and moreover, what difference would it make to the discussion if we all used our real names? You have been slinging this same tired old crap for years now.
  5. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,791
    Location:
    Ontario California
    That is all he has. Tired old retreaded trolling comments that are of no use to the OP or anyone else. He says I am all about the money. How much do I make from this board? How many people do I beg to go to my website? "Click here pleeeeeeease..." Even the training seminar I am doing next week is free. I am paying for the airfare, the hotel, the rental car... Big money maker there for me. Not only that, this training seminar is for a competitor. :)

    He is so worried about my real name, considering he gives out other executives personal office phone numbers when he gets mad at them, I am sure many people would understand why I dont advertise my name. And like you said, I actually have a permanent address and a job.

    Now to the OP's questions, if you beleive he uses a Canature valve in order to give you a better product, not to save money... I have a bridge for sale. Have him put on the Clack valve, and request an extra free injector, 1 size larger than the one that is designed for a 10" tank. I beleive the 10" tank is an E, ask him to give you a G injector so if there is any problem, it can be fixed easily by you, it will not require him to come out and adjust anything, you simply replace the injector with the next size up. Also, feel free to have this guy call me if needs any assitance in the future.

    Water softening resin and GAC require significantly different backwash rates.

    Water softener: 5 GPM per sq. ft, 10" tank 5x5x3.14/144x5 = approximately 2.5 GPM
    GAC: 10 GPM per sq. ft., 10" tank 5x5x3.14/144x10 = approximately 5+ gpm. Sorry, to lazy to get a calculator to give you exact numbers, but the GAC requires twice the backwash rate of resin. They either can slit the difference making both medias improperly backwashed, or one will be way under, oir way over.

    Notice my system below, 4 different diameter tanks, 4 different medias, all balanced. The softening resin is slightly over bacwashed, but I have adjusted the freeboard to accomodate this.

    prototype2.jpg
  6. Zzyzx

    Zzyzx New Member

    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    He didn't say he installed the Canature valve because it was better then the Clack, he said he installed it because it preforms a function (backflush 2 tanks) that the Clack can't. I have asked several times if the Clack can preform that function, but still have not received an answer :confused:

    I will run this information by him to see what he says.

    I will run these statistics by him was well. Thanks for the information!
  7. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,791
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Maybe I didnt define it clearly enough. The Clack valve has 1 minor disadvantage that other valves dont have. Fully adjustable cycle times. For 95% of applications, this is not an issue. For a twin tank system, the brine draw time will typically be extended slightly to allow for a little extra slow rinsing to occur ensuring the salt brine is completely gone when the system completes the regeneration. A Fleck SXT and Canature valves have adjustable cycle times. For the most part, the Clack will do just fine, but if there is ever a problem, we simply put in the next larger injector to overcome this.

    The Clack is absolutely a better valve. As is the Fleck. The Canature valves have started to pass some of the more difficult testing protocols that they have failed in the past. They are NSF, but this in itself does not indicate the valve is good, only that it does not impart dangerous impurities into the water.

    Sorry if I was not clear on that, hopefully this is more clear.

    The real test wouldbe to ask the question on this or any other board. "I have a ten year old Canature valve that is not working, should I repair it?" The answer will be a resounding "no", and to replace it with a high quality valve. The Canature valves are not junk like many valves are, but they certainly are not the same quality as Pentair or Clack Corp valves.

    If you notice on my system, it is similar to your design, just take to a more difficult level. Also, a 7000XTR was used for this prototype, I adjusted the brine draw to 120 minutes and I use a slightly smaller injector to maximize efficiencies during this weeks tests. All low TDS waste is diverted to irrigation, high TDS is diverted to sewer. The Grey box to the right of the softener uses an HM digital commercial TDS monitor controlling an Apollo motorized 3 way ball valve on the drain line.

    Turbidex in a 10" diameter tank 7-9 gpm backwash rate
    Softening resin in a 14" tank 5-6 GPM< more freeboard due to backwash rate
    KDf 55 in a 7" tank 7-8 GPM backwash rate
    GAC in a 12" tank 7-8 GPM

    As you can see, the tanks backwash rates are all within specifications, except for the softener, it is slightly high on the backwash, but an extended freeboard was calculated to correct for this.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2012
  8. Zzyzx

    Zzyzx New Member

    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Yes, this is very clear to me now, thank you!

    The installer gave me 30 days to test the system. In a couple of weeks he will be coming out to test the water hardness among others. I'll run by the information that has been provided.

    Again, thanks for the insight. :)
  9. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,791
    Location:
    Ontario California
    The system will work the same, Canature or Clack, it ismore of a longevity issue. Even the worst quality control valves we test will make through our 1 year simulator. The real question comes into the 10 year simulator, and our cycle testing.

    Ask him what DLFC he used and how he accomodated the variances in the tank diameters for the different medias. I will be honest, he wont be able to answer that since he bought the unit from a distributor as is, and most people dont understand this concept. Even the distributors of this unit dont understand it. It is good marketing, (1 Valve to control 2 tanks, saves water!) in reality, it is really just done to save some money on the expensive control valves. It does legitimately save some water, but that is the marketing apsect.

    Now, in all reality, the unit should be fine, even though the medias are not being properly backwashed. When we test medias, we have formulas, equations, rules, etc, that we follow to ensure the medias and the systems function in a very specific and repeateable way even when they are installed in warm or cold water, high DSI or low, municipal, or well. When a system is installed, there is so much safety factor built into the design that even if it installed completely impropoerly, it will suually still work for many years. Your unit is a good example. even though the backwash rates will be wrong, the resin and GAC will still probably last for many years without fail. When they are done right, the medias can last much longer, function better, and be more efficient.

    Hope this helps.
  10. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Yes lead generation/prospecting costs money.

    Unless you own the wholesale only company you work for you don't have a web site and especially a web site for DIYer residential customers.

    Recall you told us all about an article you wrote awhile back (I read it) and it has a short bio on you? You said you weren't hiding who you are and didn't care if people knew who you are, so now you've changed your mind?

    About that "executive" and his name and phone number..., if you were honest you'd mention that he told all online dealers in a group email that for whatever reason if they could not service their online customers to give them his name, number and extension and he personally would get them parts etc.. He as done it in the past and again just last week for a customer of mine.

    And that you got that info from my forum where a copy of his email was posted and I posted it for my customers benefit since I was not going to be in business.

    It's about time.

    BTW, the article you mentioned in Jan. that you were writing for publication this Sept., did you get it done? Can we read it?

    BTW, what version of the Clack WS-1 are you referring to when you say the cycle times aren't adjustable on a Clack? IIRC there is none of its 4 versions that you can't adjust the length of time on.
  11. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    So after all your fluffing and puffing in your many replies in this thread, you finally got to the bottom line. We'll see if next time you can't get there much sooner.
  12. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,791
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Keep on trolling! :)
  13. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,071
    Location:
    Maine
    Probably would have if not for having to field your nonsense LOL
  14. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,071
    Location:
    Maine
    At least he got there. You never posted anything of use whatsoever.
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