New Well, Need Advice on Systems

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BadDad

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Hey Guys, So I purchased a 5 acre ranch here in Bakersfield, CA.
there was an old well on the property, 14" casing, 200' deep that has dried up.
I'm having a new well dug, 8" casing 600' deep. Water level is at 280, i plan on having the pump at 460'

I'm getting the best deal on the well that ive been able to for california, $50 a foot! ugh, i know others are paying soo much less.
anyhow, thats $30k for just the well.
The well digger quoted me $12,000 for a 5hp pump and two 119 gallon pressure tanks.
i'm outraged. he's trying to bend me over without any lube at all...

I've contacted a handful of other companies for bids but what I ideally want is a
5hp submersible pump
two 119 gallon pressure tanks
a 5000 gallon storage tank
a booster pump, not sure of the HP

What I plan on doing with this property (its a blank slate) is a homestead, landscaping around the house. A lot of tree around the property. A small orchard, about an acre. A green house. Some livestock, pigs, lambs, chickens.

What I am asking help with is, possibly a DIY system. I cannot fathom paying $12,000 for a $2000 pump and $1000 of tanks. sure there is some more costs, fittings, pipe, cable. but not $8,000 for installation. hell no.

I've seen this photo and it gives me a lot of direction. its pretty much what i have in mind

index.php


What i'd like some help with is, what size booster pump would i need for my usage, are there any guides that give a more detailed breakdown of the individual components and how they are interconnected, such as the pressure switches and how they connect to the pump control system.

Thanks in advance!
 

Reach4

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For a home, a 10 GPM pump is usually plenty for house with 3 baths and a fair amount of lawn watering. No need for an above-ground tank. That 8 inch hole with all of that water in it is a great storage tank. No above-ground pump needed.

Is the above ground tank mainly for fire fighting, or what? For fire fighting, the fire department brings their own pumps.
 

BadDad

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For a home, a 10 GPM pump is usually plenty for house with 3 baths and a fair amount of lawn watering. No need for an above-ground tank. That 8 inch hole with all of that water in it is a great storage tank. No above-ground pump needed.

Is the above ground tank mainly for fire fighting, or what? For fire fighting, the fire department brings their own pumps.


Thank you for the response.
The above ground tank I want for several reasons, yes for the fire department. I havent actually read the code, but i do believe that they do require a tank. Secondly, I want to draw from the tank, not from the well directly. I do plan on using quite a bit of water on my land. I foresee over 200+ fruit trees, over 200 decorative trees, a very large green house and animals. Thirdly I would like to have the storage tank as a back up reserve, if something does go wrong with the submersible, I will have a reserve of water until the pump can be replaced.

What I'm unclear of is how much volume/gpm of water I would require of the booster pump. I will be running 2" pvc pipe all through out the property to 1.5" sprinkler heads. The orchard will use a drip water system.
 

Valveman

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Lots of options here. First if you are going to use a storage tank then all your water supply should come from the booster pumping out of the storage tank. So you would size your booster pump for the max demand you need for irrigation and such. And you don't need two of those 119 gallon pressure tanks for the well pump or the booster pump.

You also do not need a 5HP in the well if you are just using it to fill the storage tank. A 10 GPM, 1.5HP would deliver more than 15,000 gallon per day to the storage tank. Then you could run a 30 GPM booster pump for up to 8 hours with that much in storage.

You could drop in a 1.5HP on about 400' of poly pipe and do the install yourself. I would use a float switch in the storage tank connected to a Cycle Sensor for dry well protection for the pump.

You could also do the booster yourself or call a regular plumber, as it is only plumbing that is needed. A 2.5HP like a Sta-Rite DHHG would deliver up to 42 GPM at 50 PSI. And if you use a CSV with the booster pump it will also deliver as little as 2 GPM without cycling the pump on and off, so a 20 to 40 gallon size pressure tank is all that is needed.

You can get a Hallmark well pump for less than 200 bucks. With 400' of poly pipe, wire, and other fittings, I think you could do the well pump for around 1000 bucks.

I found a DHHG for $860. Then with a CSV12550-3 ($63) and a 40 gallon size tank ($300), and maybe another $300 in other fittings the booster could be done for $1500+.

As I have said before, you are not paying an installer for the equipment, you are paying for what you don't know.
 

Greenmonster123

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If you are banking on the cistern for back up you would need an alert system of some kind otherwise you wouldn't know you had a problem with the well pump until the tank was empty
 

BadDad

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Lots of options here. First if you are going to use a storage tank then all your water supply should come from the booster pumping out of the storage tank. So you would size your booster pump for the max demand you need for irrigation and such. And you don't need two of those 119 gallon pressure tanks for the well pump or the booster pump.

You also do not need a 5HP in the well if you are just using it to fill the storage tank. A 10 GPM, 1.5HP would deliver more than 15,000 gallon per day to the storage tank. Then you could run a 30 GPM booster pump for up to 8 hours with that much in storage.

You could drop in a 1.5HP on about 400' of poly pipe and do the install yourself. I would use a float switch in the storage tank connected to a Cycle Sensor for dry well protection for the pump.

You could also do the booster yourself or call a regular plumber, as it is only plumbing that is needed. A 2.5HP like a Sta-Rite DHHG would deliver up to 42 GPM at 50 PSI. And if you use a CSV with the booster pump it will also deliver as little as 2 GPM without cycling the pump on and off, so a 20 to 40 gallon size pressure tank is all that is needed.

You can get a Hallmark well pump for less than 200 bucks. With 400' of poly pipe, wire, and other fittings, I think you could do the well pump for around 1000 bucks.

I found a DHHG for $860. Then with a CSV12550-3 ($63) and a 40 gallon size tank ($300), and maybe another $300 in other fittings the booster could be done for $1500+.

As I have said before, you are not paying an installer for the equipment, you are paying for what you don't know.

Thanks Valveman. I know what you mean about paying the installer not for the installation, but for what i dont know.

unfortunately i cannot just throw money around like that, i still have two little kids who need food and clothes and we still need to build a house. So if i can save several thousand dollars by educating myself, that will go right back to my family.

i found this diagram, what do you think of it?

pressuretank.png



What sort of on/off float systems would you recommend for use in the storage tank?
also @greenmonster123 what sort of alert system would you recommend?

I'd like to do this right the first time and use higher quality components that will last me 10 or 20 years.
 

Valveman

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The only thing you can do to make it last longer is to limit the cycling. With as much water as you are planning on using on so many different applications, a CSV on the discharge of the booster pump would be a good idea. Also to simplify the wiring and make give it more protection, I would only use two float switches. The top float switch would control the well pump, and another just below it would be only for an alarm of some kind. You can use a Cycle Sensor to protect the booster pump from running when the cistern is dry, and it would also double to protect the pump from rapid cycling if the tank, switch, or CSV ever malfunction. I would also put a Cycle Sensor on the well pump if there is any possibility of pumping the well dry.

Here is a drawing using a jet pump, and the bottom picture uses a sub in the cistern as a booster. You would have more options and better pressure using a sub as a booster. I am out of the office and don't have a drawing of the slightly larger CSV system that you would need for 30-40 GPM. But these are similar.

LOW YIELD WELL_ CENTRIFUGAL_PK1A.jpg


Drawing with sub booster.
LOW YIELD WELL_SUB_PK1A.jpg
 
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Boycedrilling

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Pretty fancy controls. The control head is about $400. The ultrasonic transducer you need for the reservoir will cost more than that. You're going to have well over $1,000 in materials for controls. A $50 float control works just fine.
 

Boycedrilling

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My shop was originally built in the 1970's as a grain corn drying and storage facility. It originally had a 20 hp submersible pump in the well set at 500 ft. It pumped to a 20,000 gallon above ground reservoir. It had a small centrifugal pump plumbed to the reservoir for domestic uses and a 10 hp centrifugal for high volume uses. The submersible pump was controlled by B/W liquid level controls in the reservoir.

I still use the same system. Though I only have a 3 hp submersible in the well these days. Is still controlled by the same B/W controls and relays. I have a 1 hp centrifugal plumbed to the reservoir to provide domestic water pressure. Yes, it has a CSV on it. If I need to fill a water truck, we just gravity fill it from the reservoir. The corn drying equipment hasn't been used in over 20 years. The grain bins are filled with organic wheat that goes into flour for Dave's Killer Bread, by the way. We no longer have need for high volume flows of water except for fire protection or filling a water truck, which doesn't need pressurized water.

B/W or Warwick controls used to be a very common method of level control in tanks and reserviors. Mine are over 40 years old and still working fine. Yes it would be nice to have a digital water level gauge but I don't need to spend a thousand dollars.

I've also seen liquid level controls used down hole in a well as a means of low water level control. But I haven't come across one of those setups in more than 25 years. These days an electronic control like the cycle sensor does a better job and senses many additional things.
 

BadDad

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Thanks, I'm learning a lot. I did think that those controls were really over priced.

Would you be able to link to some reasonable controls?
 

BadDad

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just thinking out loud here.
There will be a control switch for the submersible pump in the storage tank. when the water level reaches a predetermined level, the pump turns off.
now there will be another switch on the bottom of the tank that will turn off the booster pump incase the water level is too low.

Now there are also pressure controls on the pressure tanks, those also turn on/off the booster pump as a function of water demand. and from what i've read I should also have a CSV on the submersible just incase the well runs too low.

so from what i'm gathering there are more than one control device per pump, ie a float and a csv for the submersible and a float and pressure switch(s) for the pressure tanks, I plan on using two one for the house and one for the yard.

I'm trying to figure out how do i wire this up. I'm assuming the Munro Start box is a contactor switch, just like they use in the Air Conditioners, it receives a 24v signal and connects the power.

is the same type of control box being used for the booster pump?
 

Valveman

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All you need for the well pump is a Cycle Sensor, a $30 double pole relay, and a $75 SJ Rhombus (pump up) float switch. If you want to throttle the well pump back a little just install a ball valve on the way to the storage tank. You don't need a CSV or pressure tank for the well.

From the storage tank all you need is a properly sized booster pump, CSV, small pressure tank, pressure switch, and a Cycle Sensor, in case you pump the storage dry, (and it will also protect the booster from rapid cycle).

The above drawings show how to wire the float switch, relay, and Cycle Sensor for the well pump. It also shows how to wire the Cycle Sensor and pressure switch for the booster pump.
 

BadDad

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Thanks @valveman i've got the well diggers here but the rain has put a pause on the work for the past few days.

so far i've got my shopping cart ready to buy most of the components.
ive got a 5hp goulds pump and motor with control box
http://www.ebay.com/itm/282279454572
a goulds 2hp booster pump
http://www.ebay.com/itm/252175941738
and two 119 gallon pressure tanks
http://www.ebay.com/itm/322198333314

What i'm uncertain of right now is the cable. It's a single phase 220v setup. the pump is being set at 480'
will this cable be the correct one to use? its
500' 4/3 heavy duty flat Double Jacketed Submersible Pump Cable w 8 ground Wire
http://www.ebay.com/itm/151648787082
 

Valveman

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Well you do need #4 wire for a 5HP set over 450' deep, and that is good wire. But do you really need a 5HP? That 5HP is going to be producing about 32 GPM, which is 46,000 gallons per day. Are you ever going to need 46,000 gallons per day? Even if you ran a 30 GPM booster pump for 8 hours a day you would only need 15,000 gallons per day, which can be done with only 10 GPM from the well. You can get more than that with a 1.5HP, like the 10GS15. Then you would only need #10 wire, maybe 1 1/4" pipe, and a lot less expensive pump to purchase and maintain.

That booster pump you are looking at is designed to produce only about 20 GPM at 130 PSI. If you need 20 GPM at 130 PSI that pump is great. But if you are needing more than 20 GPM at a more normal 40-60 PSI, that is the wrong pump to choose. That one can't even put out as much as you are planning on being able to put in the storage tank. The DHHG I proposed will do about 40 GPM at 50 PSI.
http://www.lockewell.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_96_325_145_320&products_id=1305

Lastly Foltec tanks are junk. You just as well put a match to that 1600 bucks as buy that brand of tank. If you are going to go the out dated method with 2 big tanks, at least use Amtrol tanks that will last like these.
https://www.amazon.com/Amtrol-WX-350-Well-Pressure-Tank/dp/B00EKV8LV0

There are two different Cycle Stop Valves that will work with a DHHG pump. The first is a CSV12550-3, which only cost $63.00. If you want to go with a more heavy duty even municipal grade type CSV, the CSV3B2T at $647.50 is also a good choice. With either of these the pump will not cycle as long as you are using more than 3 GPM. When you close all the faucets 3 GPM is also the rate the CSV will fill the pressure tank. So a 44 gallon size tank, which holds about 12 gallons at 40/60, is actually a larger tank than you need.

Not only will these changes shave a few thousand dollars off your total, but will be easier to install, work better, and last longer.
 
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