New toilets draining mysteriously

[jjfad]

I replaced an old toilet at my girlfriends house with a new American Standard Clean Cadet 3. The old toilet took a really long time to flush, the flapper would get stuck, and the bowl seemed to not hold a propper water level. She wanted a new toilet so I installed one. The new toilet would flush fine and the bowl would fill, but then the bowl would slowly drain until there was almost no more water in it. I could hear the water trickling into the drain with no signs of external leakage. I called American Standard. They said it sounded like a cracked or defective bowl so we exchanged it at Lowes for another Clean Cadet 3. Before installing the second new toilet I poured a bucket of water down the drain to make sure there were no issues. I then installed the new toilet bowl. Before I attached the tank I manually filled the bowl with water to make sure it would hold. It held water with no problems. As soon as I attached the tank and did a test flush the same problem returned. It would flush and fill the bowl, but the bowl would slowly leak into the drain. I called American Standard again and they said I must have gotten another bad bowl and that they would send me another one. I asked them "If the bowl is cracked then why was it holding water before I attached the tank?" They had no answer for me. So I've got a third new toilet on the way. Any idea what could be going on? I'm quite confused at this point.

BTW the tank holds water just fine so no problems with the flapper. The chain and fill level are set to where they should be.

Any clue as to why the bowl won't hold water? I've checked underneath the house and around the toilet. No signs of leakage. Plus I can hear the water escaping into the drain.

There is another Clean Cadet 3 installed in the upper floor of the house and it works fine.

I find it hard to believe that we got 2 bad toilets...

 

[Gusherb94]

If it held before you put it over the flange then the first thing I'd suspect is a strong enough negative pressure In the drainline to suck water out of the bowl. Did you put your hand over the flange to feel if it was sucking air in?

Or perhaps you're maybe just seeing the bowl overfilled as the tank is filling and then the bowl level returning to normal as the water spills over the weir.

Hard to tell from here but those are two likely possibilities.

 

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[WJcandee]

Gusher has it exactly right. It should be one or the other.

A lot of bowls are a little overfilled by the refill hose when the tank is refilling and then settle down to their "settle level" as water drips over the weir until the water level is even with the weir. And that's where it is supposed to level to. If the settle level of the bowl was higher when you filled it before attaching the tank, then there is a difference that bears investigating.

What I am wondering is whether you fully-installed the bowl before attaching the tank (i.e. with the wax, etc.) or whether you just placed it in place and tested it. There is nothing about attaching the tank and initiating the flush process that should make any difference as opposed to dribbling water into it from a bucket. If you hadn't put the wax in before your test, then likely you have some negative pressure somewhere for some reason. If you did put the wax in, and you let it sit long enough for the bucket test water also to settle, it's a mystery as to why one would yield a different result than the other.

 

[jjfad]

I installed the bowl to the floor with the wax ring and it held water. Once I installed the tank and flushed it no longer held water more than a couple of inches.

The drain was definitely not sucking air in. Is it supposed to be?

I think I'm going to snake the drain before I install the next toilet and see if that helps.

 

[Reach4]

I installed the bowl to the floor with the wax ring and it held water. Once I installed the tank and flushed it no longer held water more than a couple of inches.

The drain was definitely not sucking air in. Is it supposed to be?

I think I'm going to snake the drain before I install the next toilet and see if that helps.

If the problem was suction on the sewer line, you could test for that by covering the overflow in the tank with plastic and a rubber band. Then lay Saran Wrap across the top of the toilet. You would need to overlap, but it will cling to itself. If the wrap pulls down when the water level has dropped, then there is suction on your sewer. I think that would be rare, but I don't have experience.

While the toilet is off of the flange, you could lay Saran Wrap right across the toilet flange to test for vacuum.

Another test would be to stick a piece of tubing/hose through the trap so that the end of the hose is past the bottom of the toilet. Then blow on the outside end to clear out any water from the tubing. That would serve to break or at least reduce any vacuum so the leaking would be less. If the tubing is clear, you could dip the free end into a glass of water. If the water climbs the inside of the tubing more than 1/4 inch higher than the water level in the glass, there is suction.

I cannot imagine that snaking the drain would cure this symptom.

If you are going to be maybe pulling the toilet again, consider a waxless seal such as SaniSeal. It can be reused, and it is easier for the less experienced person to use well. It also allows the leveling shims to be inserted after placement. With wax, you should never lift the toilet, even 1/8 inch, off of the wax. With SaniSeal, that is not a problem.

How quickly does the water leak down? If the toilet was tilted a lot toward the rear and the leaking was just several seconds, that could give that symptom I think. You would solve that by shimming up the rear of the toilet to make the bowl level.

 

[Jadnashua]

If the toilet is not vented properly and something else is draining into that line upstream, that could create a vacuum. FWIW, if you put a level on the top rim of the toilet, is it level front-back?

 

[Jadnashua]

If the toilet is not vented properly and something else is draining into that line upstream, that could create a vacuum. FWIW, if you put a level on the top rim of the toilet, is it level front-back?

 

[Reach4]

If the toilet is not vented properly and something else is draining into that line upstream, that could create a vacuum. FWIW, if you put a level on the top rim of the toilet, is it level front-back?

f the toilet is not vented properly and something else is draining into that line upstream, that could create a vacuum. FWIW, if you put a level on the top rim of the toilet, is it level front-back?

Still bumping your post count for some reason, I see.

 

[jjfad]

The toilet is level.

We're still waiting for the new toilet.

Last night I turned off the intake and flushed the toilet. I then poured a bucket of water into the bowl and it held just fine for over 30 min. When turned the intake on the tank filled back up as well as the bowl (almost to the point of overflowing because of the water I had poured in). When I flushed the toilet the same problem occurred. The bowl would not stay filled after flushing.

I am beyond confused/frustrated at this point... I'd really like to solve this mystery. I don't think the problem is with the toilet. I have yet to see a toilet that will hold a proper bowl fill level after flushing in that room and there's been 3 toilets in there. It will be nice if the 4th toilet works but I'm not holding my breath.

The bowl seems to only hold water when there is no water in the tank. This doesn't make any sense to me but I'm not a professional plumber.

 

[Reach4]

Last night I turned off the intake and flushed the toilet. I then poured a bucket of water into the bowl and it held just fine for over 30 min. When turned the intake on the tank filled back up as well as the bowl (almost to the point of overflowing because of the water I had poured in). When I flushed the toilet the same problem occurred. The bowl would not stay filled after flushing.

Is there any chance that you are confusing not having the bowl refill after a flush with a leak? A leak would have the bowl fill up after the flush and then drop. If it was inadequate refill, the bowl would not fill up to the same level as the bucket was able to fill to after a flush. With a small leak, the bowl would be full by the time the fill valve shut off, and then the water level would drop.

 

[Jadnashua]

For the last two weeks or so...the site sometimes does a double post...only moderators can easily delete a post.

 

[jjfad]

Perhaps it's not filling as much as it could be but the hose is pointed right into the tube and not kinked at all. After a flush, if I fill the bowl with a bucket it leaks out and I hear it going into the drain. The leak is not slow. If I fill the bowl about 3/4 of the way full it's gone except for an inch or two in less than a minute. Could it be a damaged flange or wax ring causing this? I assumed that if it were a bad seal at the floor I would see water leaking out but it's all going down the drain.

 

[Reach4]

Could it be a damaged flange or wax ring causing this?

No.

 

[Jadnashua]

It would be a rare toilet that only had an inch or two standing water in it after a proper refill (some Euro toilets seem to be like this). The typical toilet sold in the USA often has enough depth to cover the typical waste deposited there (when I lived in Germany long ago now (about 35-years), that wasn't always the case by design).

It would take a fair amount of vacuum in the drain line to cause the level to drop, and that should not happen if it is properly vented. The level can drop if the wrong fitting is used and something else draining causes pressure waves in the line and 'rocks' the water level in the bowl...sloshing out some of the water as it rebounds back and forth, but the odds of that happening in short order (unless, say you were in an apartment building where there were numerous chances of people flushing toilets or draining tubs or showers) is very small. The fact that you seem to be able to hear it dribbling out leads more to a leak verses a drain problem, but you're the one there, not us.

If you haven't tried the experiment of capping the line and watching to see if the plastic film (something like SaranWrap) seal is pushed or pulled, I guess that would be my next experiment.

 

[JerryR]

You posted;
Before I attached the tank I manually filled the bowl with water to make sure it would hold. It held water with no problems. As soon as I attached the tank and did a test flush the same problem returned.

Are you saying that you installed only the bowl on the flange with a wax seal, filled the bowl with water and it held fine? Then you attached the tank, turned on the water and the bowl drained?

 

[jjfad]

You posted;
Before I attached the tank I manually filled the bowl with water to make sure it would hold. It held water with no problems. As soon as I attached the tank and did a test flush the same problem returned.

Are you saying that you installed only the bowl on the flange with a wax seal, filled the bowl with water and it held fine? Then you attached the tank, turned on the water and the bowl drained?

Yes exactly. I will try the plastic film test as well.

 

[Jadnashua]

I can't think of anything that would cause the bowl to empty just by installing the tank. I share your confusion.

 

[jjfad]

The toilet drain has a trap with water in it so suction definitely isn't the problem

I attached a pic from the basement

 

[jjfad]

I've never seen a trap on a toilet drain before. Is this normal? Could this be the problem? The house was built in 1910

 

[Reach4]

I've never seen a trap on a toilet drain before. Is this normal? Could this be the problem?

Very not normal. I can't see how that causes these symptoms, but it should be changed.