New system setup, iron softener with KDF

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by MagKarl, Jul 11, 2012.

  1. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    H2S in small amounts is nasty, but typically poses no real health problems. We are extremely sensitive to even the smallest trace amounts. You could try a catalytic type of carbon to remove the H2s, not the best solution, but it is cheap and it usually works and requires ver little maintenance.
  2. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    With 1 ppm of iron, would you suggest he install the Centaur before or after the softener?
  3. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

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    Good question. As you all know, I never recommend treating iron problems with a softener but, at only 1ppm it does not make a lot of sense to install a separate filter either so I would let the softener deal with the iron before it hits the carbon filter.
  4. MagKarl

    MagKarl New Member

    Messages:
    37
    Location:
    Washington
    I was thinking an iron filter would take care of the H2S and lighten the small but extra iron load that the softener sees.

    I'm certainly open to other options such as carbon. It looks like you need a very large carbon tank to get good service flow and price similar to an iron filter.
  5. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

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    It's only 1ppm, let the softener take care of it. less maintenance on the carbon filter. You will want to iron-out the softener occasionally though.
  6. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    The service flow of Carbon is very low but... depending on what you are trying to do, you can exceed the service flow. The service flow is rated for near complete reduction of many other problems other than H2S and Chlorine. Organics, THM, VOC's, etc,. If your primary concern is H2s reduction and/or chlorine removal, you can exceed the service flow with little problem. Otherwise, every small residential carbon system installed would have to be a 5 cubic foot unit to meet a 15 GPM service flow of a regular sized house.

    Regarding carbon before or after the softener... there has always been a good debate on the proper way. In practice, I have found little difference other than I prefer to use the GAC as a sacrificial media to protect the resin. Carbon has a higher backwash rate and any precipitated iron and other sediment or debris is easily removed from the GAC bed during backwash. If someone does it the other way, I would not argue it. By putting the Carbon first, you could more easily add chlorine injection if it was found to be necessary in the future.
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2012
  7. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Centaur carbon is not inexpensive, it is quite expensive so I wouldn't want to sacrifice much of it.
  8. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    LOL, yup, it is extremely expensive. That is why I never argue resin first or last, it is like arguing sports, rarely does anybody change their mind.

    Some guys swear the water tastes better if you put the GAC after the resin and since the resin is cleaned with the salt, it should go first, others argue the need to protect the resin. I find GAC to be highly resilient, and since it is typically on a scheduled changeout, I prefer to let it take the first hit and damage and to change it on a regular schedule. If you are chlorinating, then I would definetly recommend GAC first. Even my own softener system has the KDF and GAC after the resin. I used a 10% crosslink resin to handle the municipal water supplies chlorine. My system has the GAC after the resin due to design limitations. This may change in the future when I redesign a new system for my house.
  9. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

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    If the iron goes past 3ppm though I am going to put the GAC first. I don't like to get too rigid about these things. Sometimes it makes more sense to go with one way over the other.
  10. MagKarl

    MagKarl New Member

    Messages:
    37
    Location:
    Washington
    Ok, can you guys give me your experience with catalytic carbon and/or Filox media life? Is either better from a pressure drop standpoint? I can see a change in flow with the softener already. How often should carbon be backwashed?
  11. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Due to the expense I think protecting the Centaur is more important than protecting the much less expensive resin.

    It sounds to me that those guys are not end user consumers, that they selling carbon etc..

    That's not true of DIYers but is of dealers that want a steady income and convince their uninformed residential customers it's needed.

    You sure like to talk about yourself and your nonstandard "research" equipment and way of installing it but that doesn't help the OP.
  12. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

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    Vacation is over :cool:
  13. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    If you notice a flow reduction with just the softener, the softener is too small or there is something wrong with the plumbing or valving. Or ya just wanna power wash yer butt...

    Your best solution to get rid of the iron is to use the softener; add 4 gpg hardness per each 1 ppm of iron to your total hardness. As to an odor, you should make sure what it is, naturally occurring H2S or a very similar odor like that caused by IRB, Coliform (in some cases) etc. etc. and if it requires disinfection, that treats the iron, odor and kills the bacteria.
  14. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    No kidding, figured as much. I have read, and reread my post, still trying to figure out where the contreversy can be found.
  15. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

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    Apparently you were not clear enough in your apathy over where to install the carbon filter :)

    Hard to say. I think Gary is trying to either stick up for the customer or once more, bash filtration dealers, installers, plumbers and pretty much everyone involved in the industry LOL.

    Thought you outlined the situation pretty clearly, giving the OP the pro's and con's and adding a little more for him to consider. I was not aware that it would turn into a dealers ripping off customers thread. Like I said, every situation is different and depending on the circumstances it may sometimes be better to put the carbon filter before and sometimes after. As for selling GAC and other things well, that's the American capitalist way isn't it?

    For close to 40 years now I have been in business. Selling and service is what we do but in all that time I can't recall ever once trying to sell a customer something with the intent of ripping them off. We do the best we can to satisfy the customers needs. I am sure there are a few unscrupulous people out there that run their business that way (like the guys selling magnetic/radio wave/ancient alien technology water filters) but most of us do our best to keep people happy and hopefully they will recommend us to their friends.
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2012
  16. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    Location:
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    I guess I should clarify the term "regularly scheduled". This means it is not an ignored item. Resin can be "ignored" for many years in non iron, low chlorine installations. Carbon should be scheduled for a regular changeout depending on the installation parameters. In commercial applications monthly to annual changeouts are common, residential applications with chlorine injection, 2-5 years is not unusual. I would not recommend going beyond 5 years. I am trying to figure out how every 5 years is unfair, improper, or in any way contreversial. And in reference to my own equipment, the point was simple, I recommend GAC first, but in my own application, I have it last. The point was to show that an argument either way is going to end up with a 20 page thread... so either way is neither right nor wrong, except in specific applcations and that should be addressed when they occur. How is it that in agreeing with someone, I am wrong? LOL
  17. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Magkarl, GAC is not catalytic carbon and it is much less expensive than Centaur carbon.

    You would use either until you started getting odor through it because no one can tell you how long any carbon would last you.
  18. MagKarl

    MagKarl New Member

    Messages:
    37
    Location:
    Washington
    I will do some more reading about the two carbon types. I was under the impression that regular GAC was not as effective and is degraded by H2S. I do not intend to chlorinate unless something changes down the road and my well requires it.

    I had a thought yesterday on the pressure drop. When I had my water off to install bypass T's and valves, I swapped out my sediment filter element. What came out was pleated, what I had on hand was wrapped poly. I looked up those filter specs online, and the new element has a max flow of 10gpm vs 25gpm on the pleated. I ordered a new element and that should take care of it.
  19. B.

    B. Water Filtration Engineer

    Messages:
    1
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    You can use KDF with a softener!

    My company has developed a way to use KDF with softeners and carbons in backwashing tanks or non backwashing tanks. Check it out @ www.cuzn.com the WHCC-35 unit shows the KDF CUBES and carbon mix. Our medias are in a reticulated form to allow the KDF to remain on top of te resin or carbon even i backwashing situations. We also use a pure powdered form of KDF so it is lighter and more effective because of the smaller particle size. I just came accrosed this post and thought you might find this interesting. If you have any questions on the media or refill needs please feel free to contact me. email sales@cuzn.com and say Bob sent you.




  20. ByteMe

    ByteMe New Member

    Messages:
    61
    Location:
    Midland Texas
    I would really like some more information on these KDF CUBES.
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